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Episode image is a detail from the cover of A Book of Silence by Sara Maitland, published in 2008 by Granta Books; cover design by Dan Mogford.
Joining Charles Adrian for the 124th Second Hand Book Factory is Windrush scion, Black British Christian, storyteller and fellow Family Tree performer Azariah France-Williams. They talk a compassionate engagement with the world and a quest for silence.
You can listen to the The Family Tree, which is a magical realist podcast in which Azariah France-Williams plays himself and Charles Adrian plays the Revd Philip Beech, here. The Cuttings episode Charles Adrian refers to is here and the episode in which Azariah and Charles Adrian both appear is here.
You can learn more about the phrase “Water your herbs even if they are going to die tomorrow” and what it means to Charles Adrian by listening to the 8th episode of his Muselings podcast here.
Other books by Colm Toíbín are discussed in Page One 31 (Bad Blood) and Page One 84 (The South).
A transcript of this episode is below.
Episode released: 14th January, 2020.
Book listing:
Nonviolence: The History Of A Dangerous Idea by Mark Kurlansky
The Master by Colm Toibín
A Book of Silence by Sara Maitland
Links:
The Family Tree, Season 2, Cutting 4
The Family Tree, Season 3, Episode 6
Episode transcript:
Charles Adrian
Hello and welcome to the 150th Page One. This is quite a special number!
Azariah France-Williams
It is.
Charles Adrian
This is the 124th Second Hand Book Factory. I'm Charles Adrian and my guest this week is... or today, I should say... is Azariah France-Williams.
Jingle
You're listening to Page One, the book podcast.
Charles Adrian
Hi.
Azariah France-Williams
[speaking over] Hi there. [laughs]
Charles Adrian
So, thank you very much for coming on the podcast.
Azariah France-Williams
It's good to be here. Thank you.
Charles Adrian
How do you describe yourself, Azariah?
Azariah France-Williams
So I describe myself in different ways, depending on the day.
Azariah and Charles Adrian
[laughter]
Azariah France-Williams
My mum and dad came from the Commonwealth - they were part of the Windrush generation - and so there's something of my Caribbean and then African heritage which... which is important to me. And... and so... so I describe myself as a black British person. I describe myself as someone for whom faith has been an orienting factor for me. It's... The life and times of... of Jesus, as recorded, has been a bit of a North Star for me and has... has led me forward. And something about his life, after a couple of thousand years, that this... this life has outlived empires and shaped me and shaped society. And so that's... so he's someone who I find fascinating to continually find out more about. And I'm someone who... who loves stories. I... I enjoy telling stories, I enjoy hearing the stories of others. And I am an unpublished aspiring author. [laughs]
Charles Adrian
How wonderful!
Azariah France-Williams
So I've written...
Charles Adrian
[laughs]
Azariah France-Williams
... a fistful of short stories. And, initially, it was a type of therapy, in a way. Partly, my role is as a minister within the church. And so I... I often see people at some of the extreme points in their lives. And a way in which I began to deal with some of that was to... was to write stories and to fictionalise some of the emotions that I was feeling, or that I detected they were feeling. And so these characters and scenarios would emerge which were different and distinct enough from the original aesthetic that helped me to process something of what I was going through. But in doing that, I found I was able to empathise. I found I wrote a number of stories from female perspectives and.. and white perspectives. And it was just a wonderful tool of... of getting into someone else's shoes or high heels. [laughs]
Charles Adrian
That's interesting. Very nice!
[page turning]
Charles Adrian
Lovely. So, talking of stories, what's... what's the first book that you've brought? What's the book that you've brought that you like?
Azariah France-Williams
Yes, the book that I brought along that I like is called Nonviolence, The History Of A Dangerous Idea by Mark Kurlansky. And yeah, that's... that's... that's the book that I've brought.
Charles Adrian
It's a great title. I like it.
Azariah France-Williams
Yes. [laughs]
Charles Adrian
And I see that it's got a white poppy on the front.
Azariah France-Williams
It has. Yes. As a... as a church minister, there is an expectation on Remembrance Sunday to wear a poppy and to wear a red Poppy.
Charles Adrian
[affirmative] Mmm.
Azariah France-Williams
And I've struggled with that, to be honest with you. For me, the red poppy speaks of sacrifice but, for me, I feel that that narrative is primarily about the soldiers who have fallen in war. And for me [indistinct] the white poppy encompasses all who are victim to war. Which includes the soldiers, of course, but includes the women, the children, the quote unquote collateral damage, the real lives, the flesh and blood, which is... which has decimated the hearts that no longer beat, the lungs which are longer breathe. And so... so the white poppy's very powerful to me. And recently discovering the black poppy. [laughs]
Charles Adrian
Oh, I haven't come across the black poppy.
Azariah France-Williams
Yeah. So the black poppy... So on Remembrance Sunday, I wear all three. [laughs]
Charles Adrian
Nice!
Azariah France-Williams
I feel it tells a larger story...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Yes.
Azariah France-Williams
... a richer, more authentic story. So, in World War One, there was a globalism that was taking place and there was lots of wonderful enterprise and, with the war on the horizon, our British Empire called on its former slaves and subjects to become its soldiers. [laughs]
Charles Adrian
Right. Yeah.
Azariah France-Williams
And, when I was growing up, I knew nothing of this history. I was taught nothing of this history of... of my, you know, ancestors not that long ago, who came and fought. And, you know, were in all the ports that we know and recognize. And they were there shoulder to shoulder alongside their white compatriots and colleagues in the battle. And so... so something other black poppy is saying that there are others who are part of this story who are often forgotten in war films and in our history... They're... taken out.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Yeah, in our whole conception of those conflicts.
Azariah France-Williams
Yeah, absolutely. And there's the purple poppy as well.
Charles Adrian
What's the purple poppy?
Azariah France-Williams
The purple poppy is for the many animals...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Oh!
Azariah France-Williams
... that died in war.
Charles Adrian
Gosh. You're teaching me a lot.
Azariah and Charles Adrian
[laughter]
Azariah France-Williams
Because, you know, there's... When war happens, everyone suffers. [laughs]
Charles Adrian
Of course. No, absolutely.
Azariah France-Williams
Yeah. And so... yeah, so that's, something of the...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] How interesting. Do you want to read the first page of that?
Azariah France-Williams
Yes, I'd love to. The first page is... is a foreword by the Dalai Lama:
I have worked to promote peace and nonviolence for many years because I believe that, ultimately, it is only through kindness and nonviolence that we human beings can create a more tranquil and happy atmosphere that will allow us to live in harmony and peace. Therefore, I'm happy to see that Mark Kurlansky has wholeheartedly taken up these themes in this book.
I consider the cultivation of nonviolence and compassion as part of my daily practice. I do not think of it as something that is holy or sacred, but as of practical benefit to myself. It gives me satisfaction, it gives me a sense of peace, that is very helpful in maintaining sincere, genuine relationships with other people.
Mahatma Gandhi took up the ancient but powerful idea of ahimsa or nonviolence and made it familiar throughout the world. Martin Luther King, Jr. followed in his footsteps. The author is correct to point out that both men were regarded with suspicion by the authorities they opposed. But, ultimately, both achieved far-reaching, significant changes in the societies in which they lived. I think it's important to acknowledge here that non violence does not mean the mere absence of violence. It's something more positive, more meaningful than that. The true expression of nonviolence is compassion. It is not just a passive emotional response but a rational stimulus to action. To experience compassion is to develop a feeling of closeness to others combined with a sense of responsibility for their welfare.
Charles Adrian
That's a beautiful page. Yes. Particularly that last... those last few lines. That's really interesting. I feel like that's... that's a very common misconception, isn't it? That it is a disengagement from the world.
Azariah France-Williams
Yeah.
Charles Adrian
If that makes sense.
Azariah France-Williams
Yeah.
Charles Adrian
It is a refusal to engage with the problems.
Azariah France-Williams
Yeah.
Charles Adrian
How can we... how can we engage with the problems if we don't engage violently? But then the answer is, yes...
Azariah France-Williams
Yes.
Charles Adrian
... you do engage but compassionately.
Azariah France-Williams
Yes. For me, it's a deeper engagement. So... books like this one have helped to fuel a recent... it's been a long-time thought but it's only recently coming into action, in terms of... I think, if you want to embrace pacifism, if you want to embrace a peace-building life, you then have to... the other side of the coin is that you have to speak up against violence and things which take that away. And there's something which is inclusive and global about that. So, one of the ways in which that was expressed for me was that every couple of years, in London, there's an arms fair, where... where our British Government will... will host this fair, will be involved in selling arms to regimes which... which use torture... will use these things indiscriminately. And it's... it's kept out of the media. It's... it's a dark thing that happens. And so a number of clergy were, kind of, called to arms, as it were.
Azariah and Charles Adrian
[laughter]
Azariah France-Williams
And... and so we went and stood in the road where these lorries and things were coming. And... and this was the first time that I did this and I was nervous about it. But I sent an email to my Bishop... and... [laughs] I thought: I'll send the email... in case I was arrested, you know, that he would have had the email before the event. [laughs] And I had a chat with my wife. And her encouragement was: Go for it. And so... so that gave me the the courage to know: Okay, I've sort of covered my bases. And so then with other clergy people, we... we knelt down and prayed in the road and sang songs in the road and... [laughs]
Charles Adrian
Wow.
Azariah France-Williams
... with the police around us. And we had communion in the road. We held hands and had communion, which is the Christian ritual of breaking bread and... bread and wine. And the facilitator said: "On the night that Jesus was arrested..." And, all of a sudden, there was a power and an electricity to that phrase that I've never felt [laughs] before. And so, yeah, there's a... It felt a wonderful... a wonderful thing to do.
Charles Adrian
[affirmative] Mmm. Yeah.
Azariah France-Williams
It felt a necessary thing to do. And, I think it's another Gandhi quote: "Even if the things we do feel insignificant, we still need to do them."
Charles Adrian
Yeah, that's... Yeah... That's... that's... it's good to remember. That's something that I struggle with, for sure. That's why... You noticed that, up on my wall, I've got this phrase: "Water your herbs, even if they're going to die next week." That's my version of...
Azariah France-Williams
Yes.
Charles Adrian
... of that.
Azariah France-Williams
Yes.
Charles Adrian
... of that quote.
Azariah France-Williams
Yes.
Charles Adrian
I say my version... a friend of mine wrote it to me. But...
Azariah France-Williams
Yes. That's brilliant.
Charles Adrian
Um. Oh, lovely. Thank you so much for that. That's really wonderful.
[page turning]
Charles Adrian
Now, the book that I've brought for you, I've chosen because... So this is a little unfair of me but I'm going to read you some of your words from... from the Family Tree podcast that we're both involved in. This is from one of the Cuttings episodes. It was about life and death.
Azariah France-Williams
Okay.
Charles Adrian
And I just thought it was so wonderful that you wrote... um... You wrote! You... So, you said that: "Darkness covered the deep. And that word for 'deep' is this Hebrew... Hebrew word called... Tahom...?"
Azariah France-Williams
Tahom, yeah.
Charles Adrian
"Tahom, which is also known as the murmuring deep." I love that. "And so, before God says 'Let there be light,' God goes: 'Shh!' And there's this silence. There's a calming of the chaos in order for true creativity to emerge. So there's this sentient pain which is shushed and settled and then creativity begins to emerge." And I wrote it down because... It's beautiful! You look surprised that you even...
Azariah France-Williams
[laughs] Gosh!
Charles Adrian
... that... that... You said that!
Azariah and Charles Adrian
[laughter]
Charles Adrian
I just thought that was so gorgeous, the idea of the importance of the calm, the importance of the silence, in order for something to come. That there needs to be, I suppose, a moment of reflection. And so I was thinking about what... what that led me to, and that... So that's led me to The Master by Com Tóibín. And I think one reason for that is that I read it at a time when I was feeling quite overwhelmed and it was exactly what I needed. It has a very, very calm energy. It's about Henry James...
Azariah France-Williams
Okay.
Charles Adrian
... and it tells the story of, I think, five years in his life between... I don't think... it's not anything... you know, nothing particularly major happens in this time. It's just... it's a... it's a time when... He has a huge failure with a play that he's written and he has to deal with that. He buys a house in Rye, which he moves to. He has various interactions with different people. In the background, there's Oscar Wilde, who's written a much more successful play, that Henry James sees on the night that his play is... is... opens and is a huge disaster. And then, during the course of the... the time that the novel is going on, Oscar Wilde then falls from grace and is... is tried and imprisoned. And, all the time, Henry James, who lives a very discreet, separate sort of life, has to come to terms with the ways in which he's... he's not fully present in his life, I suppose. He's... he... he rejects intimacy with other people, he's an observer of life - in Colm Tóibín's telling. But it felt... it felt to me that what Colm Tóibín is looking at is... is this writer looking for that silence. He is describing this... this quest for a kind of peace, a kind of calmness, which is elusive, and very... very, very difficult to find, at the same time as life is continuing and age is coming. And people are dying around him. And...
Azariah France-Williams
Yeah.
Charles Adrian
And I found that very... very moving. And I think it's beautifully written.
Azariah France-Williams
Yeah, that's very exciting. And, when you hear the book I have for you...
Charles Adrian
[interrogative] Uh huh?
Azariah France-Williams
... you'll also... you'll also feel a little giddy, I think. Maybe slightly euphoric.
Charles Adrian
Wow. Oh, this is wonderful.
Azariah France-Williams
[laughs]
Charles Adrian
Okay. I'm going to read you the first page of this.
CHAPTER ONE
Azariah France-Williams
Yeah.
Charles Adrian
January 1895
SOMETIMES IN THE NIGHT he dreamed about the dead - familiar faces and the others, half-forgotten ones, fleetingly summoned up. Now as he woke, it was, he imagined, an hour or more before the dawn; there would be no sound or movement for several hours. He touched the muscles on his neck which had becomes stiff; to his fingers they seemed unyielding and solid but not painful. As he moved his head, he could hear the muscles creaking. I am like an old door, he said to himself.
It was imperative, he knew, that he go back to sleep. He could not lie awake during these hours. He wanted to sleep, enter a lovely blackness, a dark, but not too dark, resting place, unhaunted, unpeopled, with no flickering presences.
When he woke again, he was agitated and unsure where he was. He often woke like this, disturbed, only half remembering the dream and desperate for the day to begin. Sometimes when he dozed, he would bask in the hazy, soft light of Bellosguardo in the early spring, the distances all misty, feeling the sheer pleasure of sunlight on his face, sitting in a chair, close to the wall of the old house with the smell of wisteria and early roses and jasmine. He would hope when he woke that the day would be like the dream, that traces of the ease and the colour and the light would linger at the edge of things until night fell again.
There you go.
Azariah France-Williams
I love that. Thank you. Gosh.
Charles Adrian
I do think it's... it's one of those rare first pages that sets up the whole atmosphere of the novel....
Azariah France-Williams
Yeah.
Charles Adrian
... just so succinctly.
Azariah France-Williams
Gosh, I feel calm hearing it! Thank you.
Charles Adrian
That's wonderful.
Azariah France-Williams
Yeah.
Charles Adrian
I'm pleased it has that effect.
[page turning]
Charles Adrian
So what is the book that you've brought for me?
Azariah France-Williams
Yeah. The book that I brought for you is by Sara Maitland and it's called A Book Of Silence.
Charles Adrian
Oh, well perfect.
Azariah and Charles Adrian
[laughter]
Charles Adrian
How ideal is that!
Azariah France-Williams
A Journey In Search Of The Pleasures And Powers Of Silence. And... Yes, I... I loved reading this book. It's a beautiful blend of... of the personal and the societal. It's... it's wonderfully rich in the way in which she unfolds this story of her desire to search for and experience silence. And also a recognition of when silence is imposed on others, whether it's solitary confinement or people feel they have no choice or they have been silenced....
Charles Adrian
Yeah.
Azariah France-Williams
... the dark side of that as well. So it's very rich and it's well written and there are different types of writing which were really well integrated together, in my mind.
Charles Adrian
Oh, wonderful. Thank you. Read the... read the first page.
Azariah France-Williams
Certainly.
It is early morning. It is a morning of extraordinary radiance - and unusually up here there is practically no wind. It is almost perfectly silent: some small birds are chirping occasionally and a while ago a pair of crows flapped past making their raucous cough noises. It is the first day of October so the curlew and the oystercatchers have gone down to the seashore. In a little while one particular noise will happen - the two-carriage Glasgow-to-Stranraer train will bump by on the other side of the valley; and a second one may happen - Neil may rumble past on his quad bike after seeing to sheep on the hill above the house; if he does he will wave and I will wave back. That is more or less it.
I am sitting on the front doorstep of my little house with a cup of coffee, looking down on the valley at my extraordinary view of nothing. It is wonderful. Virginia Woolf famously taught us that every woman writer needs a room of her own. She didn't know the half of it, in my opinion. I need a moor of my own. Or, as an exacerbated [sic] but obviously sensitive friend commented when she came to see my latest lunacy, ‘Only you, Sara - twenty-mile views of absolutely nothing!’
It isn't ‘nothing’, actually - it is cloud formations, and the different ways reed, rough grass, heather and bracken move in the wind, and the changing colours, not just through the year but through the day as the sun and the clouds alternate and shift - but in another sense she is right, and it is the huge nothing that pulls me into itself.
Charles Adrian
That's so nice. Oh, that's wonderful. Thank you so much. I'm going to enjoy reading this. And thank you so much for this conversation. This has been lovely.
Azariah France-Williams
Great. Thank you.
Jingle
Thank you for listening to Page One. For more information about the podcast, please go to pageonepodcast.com
[Initial transcription by https://otter.ai]