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Episode image is a detail from the cover of Keith Haring, The Authorised Biography by John Gruen, published in 1992 by Simon & Schuster; cover design by Patricia Fabricant; cover photograph by William Coupon.
Hoochy mamas show your nanas! John Walter, artist and provocateur, comes into the Wilton Way Café to discuss talking dogs, puddings and the eighties. Host Charles Adrian suffers John’s musical choices and retaliates with a beautiful if sad song about someone who doesn’t get paid for doing what he loves.
Another book by Patrick Ness, More Than This, is discussed in Page One 93.
The Nigella mentioned around fifteen minutes into this episode is Nigella Lawson, who you can find out more about here.
Keith Haring, The Authorized Biography by John Gruen is also discussed in Page One 160.
This episode was recorded at the Wilton Way Café for London Fields Radio.
This episode has been edited to remove music that is no longer covered by licence for this podcast.
A transcript of this episode is below.
Episode released: 15th January, 2012.
Book listing:
The Knife Of Never Letting Go by Patrick Ness
Real Fast Puddings by Nigel Slater
Keith Haring, The Authorized Biography by John Gruen
Links:
Episode transcript:
Jingle
You're listening... you're listening to London Fields Radio.
Charles Adrian
Hello and welcome to the 18th Page One. This is the 11th Second Hand Book Factory. I'm sitting here with John Walter. So, here we go: first track of today. Now, the reason I've chosen this is because I think we - so... your microphone is not on, John, so don't even bother responding to this...
John Walter
[in background] [laughs]
Charles Adrian
... I feel like we knew each other best in 1999, I would say. The end of... Maybe the end of 1998 and the beginning of... well, most of 1999. So I've decided to play the 50th best selling song...
John Walter
[in background] [laughs]
Charles Adrian
... of 1999, which is S Club Party by S Club 7.
Music
[S Club Party by S Club 7]
Charles Adrian
So I'm hoping that brought back some memories.
John Walter
It did, yeah, of dancing around with you...
Charles Adrian
Yeah.
John Walter
... and various other people...
Charles Adrian
[laughing] Yes.
John Walter
... possibly in that skanky bar.
Charles Adrian
Oh, probably. Underground.
John Walter
[speaking over] With the... I quite liked...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Yes.
John Walter
... the darts board.
Charles Adrian
I don't even remember the da... I remember there being people who played darts.
John Walter
Yeah, I had this... I was gonna make this video where I threw darts and butterflies came off the dance floor but I never made it.
Charles Adrian
Oh, but that would have been lovely.
John Walter
[speaking over] Yeah, but maybe I should make it now.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] You could do it now.
John Walter
Yeah.
Charles Adrian
Speaking of which, how... so how do you describe yourself now, John?
John Walter
Now?
Charles Adrian
In those days you were the fine artist.
John Walter
Okay. I probably still am a bit. I mean, I'm not so different. I mean, I kind of wear stupid clothes still...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] You're really not. [laughing] You're really not at all different.
John Walter
... still got a very large forehead...
Charles Adrian
[laughs]
John Walter
... obnoxious. Well, I keep joking with my boyfriend that on my gravestone it'll say: “John Walter: universally despised”.
John and Charles Adrian
[laughter]
John Walter
But no. Possibly not. Vivacious...
Charles Adrian
Yeah.
John Walter
... loud, funny, stupid, make a lot of things, prolific, got... got a lot of fingers in different pies.
Charles Adrian
Okay, that's quite a lot of words. We might...
John Walter
[speaking over] Yeah. We covered a lot of stuff there.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Yeah. Yeah.
John Walter
Sorry. Well that... To be honest, that...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] We'll just put it in small font [indistinct].
John Walter
That kind of explains it.
Charles Adrian
Okay.
John Walter
Yeah.
Charles Adrian
So...
John Walter
All over the shop.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] John... John Walter, comma, just lots of stuff.
John Walter
[speaking over] Yeah. [makes vomiting sound]. There.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Brilliant.
John Walter
Yeah.
Charles Adrian
What book have you... What book have you brought that you like?
John Walter
I have bought [sic] a book that I read over... I don't read a lot.
Charles Adrian
Okay.
John Walter
I'm not an avid reader. I actually find sitting with a book quite difficult. But I went on holiday for the first time in a long, long time - a proper holiday...
Charles Adrian
[affirmative] Mmm hmm.
John Walter
... on a beach - and my boyfriend works in a bookshop.
Charles Adrian
Oh great!
John Walter
So he...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] I didn't know that!
John Walter
Yeah.
Charles Adrian
I would have invited him along.
John Walter
[speaking over] Yeah, he manages a book shop.
Charles Adrian
I have just... [laughs] I would have dispensed with you altogether!
John Walter
[speaking over] Yeah! He's way more interesting. I... Possibly we can just swap halfway through.
Charles Adrian
[laughs] Yeah!
John Walter
I'll phone him now.
Charles Adrian
Okay.
John Walter
And he recommended this. It's called The Knife Of Never Letting Go by Patrick Ness.
Charles Adrian
Okay.
John Walter
And it's really teen fiction.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] I like that title, though.
John Walter
Yes.
Charles Adrian
The Knife Of Never Letting Go.
John Walter
[speaking over] And it's the first of a trilogy and I kind of fancy myself as a bit of a sci-fi reader.
Charles Adrian
Right.
John Walter
I'm not really but I think I am. I kind of was when I was a teenager a bit.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] I see.
John Walter
And he was reading it on the beach and was just going: “Oh my god, oh my god, oh my god!” And I was like: “What, what, what?” And he wouldn't tell me so I had to read it.
Charles Adrian
Yes.
John Walter
I couldn't read it fast enough. I think I read it in a day and a half...
Charles Adrian
Wow.
John Walter
... in between watching lots of fat naked men on the beach.
Charles Adrian
[laughs]
John Walter
And there was a massive wave one day and we almost all died. But that's another story.
Charles Adrian
[laughs]
John Walter
Yeah. And... And I've read the other two afterwards very quickly.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] I was going to ask if you...
John Walter
[speaking over] Yeah.
Charles Adrian
... if you were drawn into the trilogy.
John Walter
And I'm not advertising it very well. I was totally drawn into the trilogy...
Charles Adrian
Yes.
John Walter
... and I read them equally quickly but they are much less interesting...
Charles Adrian
Okay.
John Walter
... and disappointing, actually. And really he should have...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Oh that's such a shame when that happens.
John Walter
... shoved it all into one book. I know.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] I see. Yes.
John Walter
If you're listening, Patrick Ness, can we get together and have a conversation?
Charles Adrian
I can... Yeah, I think... I can... I can try and sort that out for you.
John Walter
[speaking over] Because I think you've got a really good idea...
Charles Adrian
Yes. [laughs]
John Walter
... but you kind of went too far with it.
John and Charles Adrian
[laughter]
Charles Adrian
Read us the very first page
John Walter
Okay.
THE HOLE IN THE NOISE
The first thing you find out when yer dog learns to talk is that don't [sic] got nothing much to say. About anything.
“Need a poo, Todd.”
“Shut up, Manchee.”
“Poo. Poo, Todd.”
“I said shut it.”
We're walking across the wild fields south-east of town, those ones that slope down to the river and head on towards the swamp. Ben's sent me to pick him some swamp apples and he's made me take Manchee with me, even tho we all know Cillian only bought him to stay on Mayor Prentiss's good side and so suddenly here's this brand new dog as a present for my birthday last year when I said I never [sic] wanted any dog, that's [sic] what I said I wanted was for Cillian to [sic] fix this [sic] fissionbike so I would [sic] have to walk every forsaken place this [sic] stupid town, but oh, no...
Basically, to advertise it to you. On this planet, there's this other race of beings...
Charles Adrian
Okay.
John Walter
... who I can't remember their [sic] name of at the moment. They're like the alien creatures. They don't speak. They can hear each other's...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Ah.
John Walter
... other's thoughts.
Charles Adrian
Oh, okay. Yes, I see.
John Walter
So they've... there... it's a kind of higher language. But what happens is...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Yes.
John Walter
... when the humans arrive, the men can hear all the thoughts of everyone but the women can't and it essentially drives the men mad...
Charles Adrian
[understanding] Ah.
John Walter
... and there's a war and they have to se...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Right.
John Walter
... separate. And in this...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Yes.
John Walter
... community, all the men killed the women. And there's a whole...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Wow!
John Walter
... backstory...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] That sounds... Okay.
John Walter
... that unfolds.
Charles Adrian
That's... That's a little... That sounds a little less fun than the first page might suggest it's going to be.
John Walter
[speaking over] It's really frightening. And this Mayor Prentiss character that we get ref...
Charles Adrian
Yes.
John Walter
... referred to is absolutely demonic.
Charles Adrian
Wow.
John Walter
And it becomes this chase and there's a whole... You go through this weird landscape and we find out what the noise is about. I mean, I've kind of spoiled it for you now, but...
Charles Adrian
[laughs]
John Walter
... you kind of work that out.
Charles Adrian
I'm sure I'll forget it.
John Walter
Yeah, and the dog dies...
Charles Adrian
Oh!
John Walter
... which is kind of sad and...
Charles Adrian
You just can't stop spoiling the story.
John Walter
He needs a poo a lot.
Charles Adrian
[laughs] Just...
John Walter
Yeah, and Gary was really upset when the dog died and thought he might come back to life. And I did say to him at the time: “Probably not.” [laughs]
Charles Adrian
Let's... Let's listen to your first musical choice.
John Walter
Oh, brilliant!
Charles Adrian
Yeah. I... So this is Kate Bush. Now I... I don't understand why you didn't choose a better Kate Bush track.
John Walter
[gasps]
Charles Adrian
There's so much to choose from. You could have chosen The Man...
John Walter
[speaking over] I love this!
Charles Adrian
... With The Child In His Eyes or...
John Walter
The Man With The Dog In His Eyes!
Charles Adrian
[laughing] Yeah. Or Running Up That Hill?
John Walter
Yeah, but they're good but...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Babushka?
John Walter
But you [laughs]... you see this album's the best. And if you're a Kate Bush obsessive like I am, you have to listen to the whole album.
Charles Adrian
All right. Let's listen to this, shall we? This is Constellation Of The Heart.
Music
[Constellation Of The Heart by Kate Bush]
Charles Adrian
So that was Kate Bush with Constellation Of The Heart.
John Walter
[laughs]
Charles Adrian
Apparently we have to listen to the whole album to properly appreciate that.
John Walter
[speaking over] Yeah. All the way through.
Charles Adrian
All the way through. At least once. Now this part of the show is where I'm... I give my book to you...
John Walter
Woo!
Charles Adrian
... as it were. Or, well, as it will become, your book.
John Walter
Brilliant.
Charles Adrian
Now I've chosen this... it may not... may not be that I've chosen this for very good reasons but...
John Walter
[laughs]
Charles Adrian
... I have... I have chosen it. It is Nigel Slater, Real Fast Puddings.
John Walter
Woah!
Charles Adrian
Um...
John Walter
I like the cover.
Charles Adrian
Isn't it nice? It's, kind of... It's, like... It's a repeating pattern in a... Well, you're the professional. What colour [laughing] would you even call that?
John Walter
Potter's Pink.
Charles Adrian
[laughing] Potter's Pink!
John Walter
Yeah.
Charles Adrian
So try and imagine the rather chintzy design in Potter's Pink on the cover. This is part of a Penguin collection of little cookbooks. But... I don't know... have you ever read any Nigel Slater?
John Walter
No.
Charles Adrian
He is... He's a bit like... He... You know, he shares with Nigella this... this need to make everything sound much more than it is.
John Walter
Okay.
Charles Adrian
And I think you'll... I think you'll like the language.
John Walter
Great.
Charles Adrian
This is a... It's... In... In the... In the front it says, so: “Nigel Slater, Real Fast Puddings - Over 200 deserts, savories and sweet snacks in 30 minutes.”
John Walter
Oh my god.
Charles Adrian
Can you imagine? Over 200 deserts, savouries and sweet snacks in 30 minutes?
John Walter
[speaking over] I can imagine. That sounds like my afternoon.
Charles Adrian
So I'm going to read you the introduction.
John Walter
Bring it on.
Charles Adrian
This is not a book of instant indulgences. Real Fast Puddings is simply a collection of ways in which you might like to end your meal, most of which take a very little time to prepare. Some are literally instant (it takes just seconds to drop a few velvety raspberries into a glass of chilled Gewürztramina), while others take a full half hour. This book aims to do nothing more than show you what wonderful ways there are to finish a meal, some of which you might not have thought of.
I believe passionately that everyone should allow themselves just an hour a day in which to make themselves something good to eat. If they can share what they make with someone, then even better. But it is not always realistic to ask even that, which is why there were some ten-minute main courses in my last book, and even more ten-minute puddings in this one.
I find it more and more difficult to finish my meals on a savoury note. I will happily eat a piece of cheese to finish off the wine, but a morsel of something sweet, perhaps just a mouthful of vanilla ice cream and a liquor-soaked prune or a crisp water biscuit topped with tart berries and sweet clotted cream, is nigh on essential. I am not alone. Almost every letter I received after the publication of Real Fast Food, to which this is the companion volume, suggested that I had successfully enticed people back into the kitchen only to abandon them when it came to the pudding stage. This book is not a guide to tarting up instant puddings from a packet or 'a hundred ways with an Arctic Roll'. Neither will it let you get away with custard powder or 'Quick Gel'. The whole point of setting down the hundred, no, two hundred, or so ideas is to show that real food, by which I mean fresh food simply prepared at home with love, need not stop with the main course just because time is not on your side. And when is it?
Imagine a fig bulging with ripe scarlet seeds or a slice of perfect, luscious pear with a piece of grainy Parmesan cheese, or...
John Walter
[laughs] I think you... you became him just then.
Charles Adrian
Do you think?
John Walter
I mean, the... the audience can't see your face but you channelled him.
Charles Adrian
[laughs]
John Walter
Oh amazing! I actually...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] That's very... That's a real compliment.
John Walter
I mean, I have such a sweet tooth, as you know...
Charles Adrian
Yes, I do.
John Walter
... and love a cake and a bun - and I don't really need the savoury to be honest.
Charles Adrian
Well there you go.
John Walter
Brilliant. Can't wait to read that. I'm going to make some that. Also, yeah, Gary likes a cake...
Charles Adrian
Good.
John Walter
... so, you know, we like... we like to end our meal on a sweet.
Charles Adrian
Your... Your second musical choice to me is a little bit like your first.
John Walter
[laughs] It's almost exactly the same.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] This is... This... So I didn't actually... I think you gave me more than o... you gave me more than two things to choose from.
John Walter
Yeah, I did. I gave you extras.
Charles Adrian
And I can't remember what I... what I didn't choose. But I've chosen Clown featuring The C. F. Bender Circus.
John Walter
Oh! I didn't know that.
Charles Adrian
This is by Ssion [/saɪɒn/].
John Walter
Ssion [/ʃn̩/]...
Charles Adrian
[laughs]
John Walter
... as in mission [/mɪʃn̩/].
Charles Adrian
Oh. This is by Ssion [/ʃn̩/]. So here we go with Clown featuring The C. F. Bender Circus by Ssion [/ʃn̩/].
Music
[Clown by Ssion (feat. The C. F. Bender Circus)]
Jingle
London Fields Radio... it's London Fields Radio.
Charles Adrian
It is London Fields Radio. This is Page One, the Second Hand Book Factory with me, Charles Adrian, and John Walter, my guest for today.
John Walter
Woo!
Charles Adrian
And now John is just... he's studying the book that he's going to give to me.
John Walter
I'm trying to find the first page because there's a lot of preamble.
Charles Adrian
Oh I see.
John Walter
I'm giving you a... well, should I explain it?
Charles Adrian
Tell me what you're giving me.
John Walter
Well, it's called Keith Haring, The Autor... Authorized Biography...
Charles Adrian
Oh, okay.
John Walter
... but actually it's the wrong... I didn't mean to bring you this. I meant to bring you...
Charles Adrian
[laughs]
John Walter
... Oh John! I meant to bring you his diary.
Charles Adrian
Oh!
John Walter
But this is equally good.
Charles Adrian
Okay. Okay. Fine.
John Walter
So I...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] I don't know much about him.
John Walter
Oh, brilliant. That's even better.
Charles Adrian
I've seen... I've seen some of his stuff but I...
John Walter
Well, he's a hero of mine.
Charles Adrian
Right.
John Walter
And I chose this book for you really bec... Well, we just... We were having a conversation, listeners, during the last song about the eighties and me loving it and, like, maybe not everybody loving it. And Keith Haring just is a very sympathetic character. He's charming, he's good company and he really makes the most of his opportunities. And somehow the AIDS crisis galvanizes him.
Charles Adrian
Right. Oh, that sounds fascinating.
John Walter
Yeah. Shall I read you the first page?
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Yes, please do. Please do.
John Walter
Oh dear. I don't know how good it's going to be. Okay. Well, this is the... the, kind of, foreword from John Gruen:
For his confidence, honesty, candor, and kindness, I wish to express my first and foremost thanks to Keith Haring. Keith asked that I write this book and allowed me to share his life for many months prior to his untimely death in February, 1990. Long and intense taping sessions took place in New York and Water Mill, Long Island. We traveled together to Europe and California [sic] where Keith introduced me to his many personal and professional friends and acquaintances. We spent time together in Kutztown, Pennsylvania, where I met Keath's family, his oldest friend, Kermit Oswald, and his boyhood teachers.
To Keith's parents, Joan and Allen Haring, to his sisters, Kay Haring, Karen Haring De Long and Kristen Haring, and to Kermit Oswald, my deepest gratitude for sharing their memories of their son, brother, and friend.
I mean, is this re... Should I be reading this? Sorry. That was a little interjection.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] This is the first page. That's fine.
John Walter
[speaking over] This is the first page.
Charles Adrian
I'm already... I'm already gripped, actually.
John Walter
Okay. [indistinct]
Charles Adrian
Just the image of these people travelling around to try and...
John Walter
Yeah.
Charles Adrian
... record a life is fascinating.
John Walter
Well, it ki... Well, let me finish it.
Charles Adrian
Yes.
John Walter
For her deep involvement and caring concern for this project, my warmest thanks to Mary Hall Mayer, Executive Editor of Prentice Hall Editions. For her sensitive and talented eye, my gratitude to designer Barbara Cohen Aronica. For their punctillio... For their punctilious editorial and technical help, my thanks to John Paul Jones, Susan Jos... Joseph, and Lauren [sic] Barnett of Prentice Hall.
For her generous participation in supplying archival and photographic material for this book, my special thanks to Julia Gruen, Executive Director of the Keith Haring Foundation, Inc.
Charles Adrian
That's ve... I love... I just love the names, apart from anything else. [laughing] It's wonderful.
John Walter
[speaking over] I think what it tells you is what a family man he was really.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Yeah.
John Walter
And like other characters - maybe Frankie Howard - I love this idea of the gay man as a kind of interloper in other people's families...
Charles Adrian
[affirmative] Mmm.
John Walter
... and in his own family, somehow.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Yes.
John Walter
Kind of avuncular.
Charles Adrian
Right.
John Walter
And that he was a good friend to a lot of people's children. There's a lot of photographs of him drawing with the children...
Charles Adrian
Okay.
John Walter
... making pots and...
Charles Adrian
Yes.
John Walter
... things. And the fact that his work had this childlike quality...
Charles Adrian
[affirmative] Mmm.
John Walter
... and the mischief of it... It's... It's an aesthetic that people often write off as populist or over exposed...
Charles Adrian
Right.
John Walter
... but actually it's really vital. He pushes it and there's a lot of collaborations later on with William Burroughs and other people.
Charles Adrian
Okay.
John Walter
Then there's a lot of work that's not seen which is kind of... it's still got that graphic quality to it but it's really punchy and it's really political.
Charles Adrian
I see. Wow.
John Walter
[speaking over] Anyway.
Charles Adrian
Thank you very much. I'm going...
John Walter
[speaking over] You're welcome.
Charles Adrian
I'm going to enjoy finding out more about this guy. This is the end of... This is the end of today's show.
John Walter
it's gone too fast.
Charles Adrian
It has! It's gone much too fast...
John Walter
Yeah.
Charles Adrian
... but it's been wonderful. Thank you for coming in...
John Walter
[speaking over] No, thank you.
Charles Adrian
... and for, yeah, sharing... sharing your books with us and sharing your music with us.
John Walter
I can't wait to go and cook some desserts.
Charles Adrian
Yeah, go... go and do that now.
John Walter
Okay, I'm off. I'll see you later.
Charles Adrian
I'm going to... I'm going to play the last track. This has nothing to do with anything. This is...
John Walter
[speaking over] Brilliant.
Charles Adrian
... this is You Never Give Me Your Money by The Beatles.
John Walter
[makes interested sound]
Charles Adrian
Because I haven't played any Beatles yet.
John Walter
I don't really like The Beatles.
Charles Adrian
Good. Well, that's... it's like... you know...
John Walter
[speaking over] I'm the only person. [laughs]
Charles Adrian
... whatever. You're getting your...
John Walter
Revenge.
Charles Adrian
Yeah. Or I am getting...
John Walter
Yeah.
Charles Adrian
Anyway.
John Walter
Thank you.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] The tables are turned, John Walter.
John Walter
[laughs]
Charles Adrian
It's a... It's a great song. I think you should listen to this...
John Walter
I've got my ears pricked up.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] ... and, in fact, the whole album.
John Walter
Okay.
Charles Adrian
Okay? Thank you so much for coming, John.
John Walter
[speaking over] Thank you.
Music
[You Never Give Me Your Money by The Beatles]
[Initial transcription by https://otter.ai]