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Episode image is a detail from the cover of Books As History by David Pearson, published in 2011 by The British Library and Oak Knoll Press.
For this 16th Second Hand Book Factory, Charles Adrian is joined by literary editor Michael Caines, whose alter-ego is singer and songwriter Stephen M Caines of Spirit Of Play and other bands. They talk about the joy of a concise writer, of the recent additions shelf and of books as objects.
The book that they don’t talk about in this episode, by the way, is the very heavy Collected Stories by Vladimir Nabokov; it has lots of wonderful things in it, but there was no time. It is discussed, instead, in Page One 162. Nabokov’s Lolita, meanwhile, is discussed in Page One 71 and his Pale Fire is discussed in Page One 119 and the unedited version of Page One 151.
Another book by Muriel Spark, The Snobs, is discussed in Page One 32.
Lucky Jim by Kingsley Amis is also discussed in Page One 131. Another book by Kingsley Amis, The Anti-Death League, is discussed in Page One 9.
Books As History by David Pearson is also discussed in Page One 162.
This episode was recorded at the Wilton Way Café for London Fields Radio.
This episode has been edited to remove music that is no longer covered by licence for this podcast.
A transcript of this episode is below.
Episode released: 5th March 2013.
Book listing:
The Abbess Of Crewe by Muriel Spark
Lucky Jim by Kingsley Amis
Books As History by David Pearson
Links:
Episode transcript:
Jingle
You're listening... you're listening to London Fields Radio.
Charles Adrian
Hello and welcome to the 25th Page One on London Fields Radio. This is the 16th Second Hand Book Factory. I'm Charles Adrian, I'm in the Wilton Way Cafe and this is Michael.
Music
[Michael by Franz Ferdinand]
Charles Adrian
So that was Michael by Franz Ferdinand in honour of my guest today, who is Michael Caines. Hello.
Michael Caines
Hello.
Charles Adrian
Now you are... I... As I understand it you are actually Stephen Michael Caines. Is that right?
Michael Caines
I am, musically speaking. Yes.
Charles Adrian
Is that your... Is that... Have you invented the Stephen or were you... were you given that when you were born?
Michael Caines
I... I don't know which way round it is. Stephen might have invented me. But he's definitely the musical one - or at least he claims he's the musical one - and Michael Caines is the one who who writes about writing and who has a day job and...
Charles Adrian
I see.
Michael Caines
Stephen M. Caines comes out at nights and plays the guitar...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Oh I see.
Michael Caines
... and loiters around the piano, that sort of thing. So that's how I tell them apart.
Charles Adrian
[Speaking over] Does he have... Does he have horns?
Michael Caines
[laughs]
Charles Adrian
I imagine him with papier mâché horns.
Michael Caines
I... That's how I think of him.
Charles Adrian
[laughs]
Michael Caines
He's a, kind of, shadowy, almost insultingly childish figure who moves my stuff.
Charles Adrian
Oh.
Michael Caines
You know, there's... there's a guitar where a book used to be. He's...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] I see. I see.
Michael Caines
... an awkward... you know, an awkward flatmate.
Charles Adrian
[appreciative] Mmm. Let's come to your... Let's come to the first book that you brought that... just... This is the book that you like.
Michael Caines
The book that I like. Okay. If I can, I'll read the pa... f... page one...
Charles Adrian
Go ahead.
Michael Caines
... first and then just say a word about it.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] And then we'll talk about it.
Michael Caines
Not... Not very much. I don't think it needs very much. It's probably better to say less. Okay, so this is the first page. Chapter one, apparently.
‘What is wrong, Sister Winifrede,’ says the Abbess, clear and loud to the receptive air, ‘with the traditional keyhole method?’
Sister Winifrede says in her whine of bewilderment, that voice of the very stupid, the mind where no dawn breaks, ‘But, Lady Abbess, we discussed right from the start -’
‘Silence!’ says the Abbess. ‘We observe silence, now, and meditate.’ She looks at the tall poplars of the avenue where they walk, as if the trees are listening. The poplars cast their shadows in the autumn afternoon's end, and the shadows lie in regular still file across the pathway like a congregation of prostrate nuns of the Old Order. The Abbess of Crewe, soaring in her slender height, a very Lombardy poplar herself, moving by Sister Winifrede's side, turns her pale eyes to the gravel walk where their four black shoes tread, tread and tread, two at a time, till they come to the end of this corridor of meditation lined by the secret police of poplars.
Out in the clear, on the open lawn, two men in dark police uniform pass them, with two Alsatian dogs pulling at their short leads. The men look straight ahead as the nuns go by with equal disregard.
After a while, out there on the open lawn, the Abbess speaks again. Her face is a white-skinned English skull...
And that's it.
Charles Adrian
How many... How many stars would you give that page if you were reviewing it?
Michael Caines
I am immediately intrigued by that page. I think, although there are only two characters in it and something very simple is happening, it very quickly adds layers to the story so you become intrigued. And when you look back... when you reread the book, which I think...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Aha.
Michael Caines
... is quite a fun thing to do - it's only short. This is a... This is a novella I'm holding in my hands, I would say. It's 107 pages of text.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Right.
Michael Caines
Or actually it's even less than that - it's under 100 if you really count it up. But, as an opening... I picked this for the fact that I think it's quite an intriguing opening and the author is very good at those. It's Muriel Spark...
Charles Adrian
Oh, is it? Ah! Right. Okay.
Michael Caines
[speaking over] ... and I would say it's one of it's one of her good ones.
Charles Adrian
Okay. What's it called?
Michael Caines
This is... like... as I said, it's a novella called The Abbess Of Crewe. I've suddenly realised while reading that, maybe I should be consistent in where I place the emphasis on that word. Abbess [/ˈæbes/]?
Charles Adrian
I would say Abbess [/ˈæbes/] but...
Michael Caines
[speaking over] Abbess [/æbˈes/]? Yes, okay, good.
Charles Adrian
Abbess [/æbˈes/] is... is nice. That's how they'd pronounce it in France. [laughs]
Michael Caines
[speaking over] It's a ridiculous thing. In fact... In fact, this is good practice because I never read these things out loud. I read them to myself and then I don't actually think about...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Yeah. Yes.
Michael Caines
Some words I do think about how they sound because you... you pick up on alliteration or something but others I realise I must... I must skip by very selectively. [laughs]
Charles Adrian
Maybe... Maybe if we were to analyse it we would find there were reasons for your preferences. I don't know.
Michael Caines
I reckon we'd find quite weird ones. Maybe an Americanism slipping in here or just...
Charles Adrian
[laughs]
Michael Caines
... or just sheer... sheer ignorance. I wouldn't put that past me. I'm very, very bad at names. Anyway. I'm a fan of writers who can do things concisely...
Charles Adrian
[affirmative] Mmm hmm.
Michael Caines
... and Muriel Spark is for me one of... one of the real, sort of, modern, you know...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Right.
Michael Caines
... masters at this.
Charles Adrian
Right.
Michael Caines
Penelope Fitzgerald I think can do things just like that.
Charles Adrian
[affirmative] Uh huh.
Michael Caines
I think Richard Brautigan's later ones - the pastiche, kind of, novels...
Charles Adrian
[affirmative] Mmm hmm.
Michael Caines
... I think those are pretty good at that sort of thing as well...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Yeah.
Michael Caines
... but in... in different ways. I mean, these are all different...
Charles Adrian
Yes, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
Michael Caines
[speaking over] ... different stylists but I like it when they can do that.
Charles Adrian
I agree. I agree. We're going to play the first track that you suggested. This is by Cam Penner.
Michael Caines
[affirmative sound]
Charles Adrian
So I looked him up. He says on... On his website, it says that he's “[s]inging uncompromising songs about redemption and truth, his is a voice for the disenfranchised, a storyteller for those who never reach their destination.” I really like that last phrase particularly.
Michael Caines
That is nice, isn't it? Actually, you know more about him than I do then because I found him via SoundCloud...
Charles Adrian
Oh I see.
Michael Caines
[speaking over] ... and via one other song and then I just... I just loved this one but [indisctinct].
Charles Adrian
This is great. This is... This is My Lover & I. My Lover & I by Cam Penner.
Music
[My Lover & I by Cam Penner]
Charles Adrian
So that was My Lover & I by Cam Penner. Now the second part of the show is where I give the book that I'm going to give to you to you. And I've chosen... I've chosen Lucky Jim by Kingsley Amis...
Michael Caines
Oh, fantastic. [laughs]
Charles Adrian
... which you... I assume you've read.
Michael Caines
I have read but you know what? I actually do not have a copy of that. I have...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Oh wonderful!
Michael Caines
... I have a few... I see it's got that... I don't know - is that an eighties paperback or a seventies one is that? I have some Kingsley Amis with the same sort of cover. You know, a, kind of...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Yes. Yes.
Michael Caines
... illus... same kind of illustration.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] This is, yeah, late... possibly late seventies, it looks like here. It's...
Michael Caines
[speaking over] Okay. Yeah. Well, that... that is doing me a huge favour because I think I had That Uncertain Feeling in the same...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Okay.
Michael Caines
... edition and I really love that one. And this is in a similar sort of...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] I haven't read that one.
Michael Caines
... sort of mould, I think. You know...
Charles Adrian
Right.
Michael Caines
... obviously.
Charles Adrian
When I... Yes, I thought of it because I... I see in you a certain kind of dapper Englishness...
Michael Caines
[laughs]
Charles Adrian
... and I think this has... has a [laughing] similar... similar feeling because it's... it's kicking out - you know, it thumbs its nose at authority but in... in the way that... that, you know, people were in the nineteen-fifties. There's nothing...
Michael Caines
Sure.
Charles Adrian
... There's no relationship with the, kind of, counterculture...
Michael Caines
[laughing]
Charles Adrian
... movement of ten or fifteen years later. It's not really dangerous...
Michael Caines
[speaking over] Yeah.
Charles Adrian
... it's just a little bit impolite...
Michael Caines
Yes. That's more like it. Yes. [laughs]
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] ... and... and [laughing] I rather like that. Christopher Hitchens apparently called it the funniest book of the second half of the [laughing] twentieth century.
Michael Caines
[laughs]
Charles Adrian
I mean, I also like Christopher Hitchens because he always... he believes so thoroughly the things that he believes.
Michael Caines
E... Yes.
Charles Adrian
He's... He's... You can almost believe that he has read all of the books that came out in the second half of the twentieth century and he's made his choice.
Michael Caines
It's got the ring of authority. Even if it's not true...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] It does. [laughs]
Michael Caines
... it does sound like it could be true.
Charles Adrian
And, yes... And the cover is... the cover is rather wonderful. It shows... It shows Jim himself at the podium with a black eye.
Michael Caines
[laughs]
Charles Adrian
Let me read... Let... So let me read the first page to you.
Michael Caines
Marvellous.
Charles Adrian
One.
‘They made a silly mistake, though,’ the Professor of History said, and his smile, as Dixon watched, gradually sank beneath the surface of his features at the memory. ‘After the interval we did a little piece by Dowland,’ he went on; ‘for recorder and keyboard, you know. I played the recorder, of course, and young Johns...’ He paused, and his trunk grew rigid as he walked; it was as if some entirely different man, some imposter who couldn't copy his voice, had momentarily taken his place; then he went on again: ‘... young Johns played the piano. Versatile lad, that; the oboe's his instrument, really. Well anyway, the reporter chat must have got the story wrong, or not been listening, or something. Anyway, there it was in the Post as large as life: Dowland, yes, they'd got him right; Messrs Welch and Johns, yes; but what do you think they said then?’
Dixon shook his head: ‘I don't know, Professor,’ he said in sober veracity. No other professor in Great Britain, he thought, set such store by being called Professor.
‘Flute and piano.’
‘Oh?’
‘Flute and piano; not recorder and piano.’ Welch laughed briefly. ‘Now a recorder, you know, isn't like a flute, though it's the flute's immediate ancestor, of course. To begin with, it's played, that's the recorder, what they call à bec, that's to say you blow into a shaped mouthpiece like that of an oboe or a clarinet, you see. A present-day flute's played what's known as traverso, in other words you blow across a hole instead of...’
As Welch again seemed becalmed, even slowing further in his walk, Dixon relaxed at his side. He'd found his professor standing, surprisingly enough, in front of the Recent Additions shelf in the College Library, and they were now moving diagonally across a small lawn towards the front of the main...
There you go.
Michael Caines
[laughs]
Charles Adrian
I even... I love the idea of a recent additions shelf...
Michael Caines
That is...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] ... in a college library. Isn't that wonderful?
Michael Caines
[speaking over] ... that is very lovely. That is indeed part of my world. And [laughing] I'm overjoyed to hear that again. [laughs]
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] So for those people who've read everything that is in the library, you can go and see if there's something new that you haven't come across.
Michael Caines
[speaking over] There's some... Exactly. Exactly. If you [it]are Christopher Hitchens, you can go and find things you haven't read.
Charles Adrian
[laughs] [speaking over] That's what you can do.
Michael Caines
So you can keep up. That's marvelous.
Charles Adrian
Let's...
Michael Caines
Thank you.
Charles Adrian
Let's listen to your second track. This is... This is Elephants & Little Girls by Loch Lomond. Now, I don't know anything about them. I did try to look them up but nothing... nothing appeared [indistinct].
Michael Caines
Okay. You probab... You got the... Scotland.
Charles Adrian
I did. I got a lake.
Michael Caines
[speaking over] Right. Okay. I know little about them except that they have released a couple of very beautiful albums. I actually like my music that way. I like knowing...
Charles Adrian
[affirmative] Mmm.
Michael Caines
... so it's a bit of a mystery to me.
Charles Adrian
Yes.
Michael Caines
And... But I do know that they're from Portland in Oregon...
Charles Adrian
[affirmative] Mmm hmm.
Michael Caines
... and they... the numbers of the bands, sort of... sort of, cha... fluctuate. I think...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Okay.
Michael Caines
... there's a nine-piece band - or it was the last time I checked.
Charles Adrian
[laughing] Right.
Michael Caines
There's a - I think - pretty beautiful single-take video on YouTube to accompany this song which is worth looking up if one is idle and feels the need.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Oh I will do.
Michael Caines
And... And, yeah, the rest of the album this is from I think is very beautiful. Yeah.
Charles Adrian
Wonderful. So Elephants & Little Girls by Loch Lomond.
Music
[Elephants & Little Girls by Loch Lomond]
Jingle
London Fields Radio... it's London Fields Radio.
Charles Adrian
It is, it's London Fields Radio. It's Page One with Charles Adrian and I'm here for the Second Hand Book Factory with Michael Caines. And now you're going to give a book to me. Or you're going to tell me about the book that you're going to give to me.
Michael Caines
[speaking over] It's my turn, yes. I'm going to give you a book. May I offer you the choice? [laughs]
Charles Adrian
If you have... Yes, if you must.
Michael Caines
[speaking over] I believe I threatened you with this. [laughs]
Charles Adrian
You did, yes. [laughs]
Michael Caines
You can... You can have both if you want but which one would you like to hear from? I... You can have Books As History by David Pearson.
Charles Adrian
Yeah. Let's go with Books As History. Yes.
Michael Caines
[speaking over] Books As History? Okay. Let's do it. So yeah. So David Pearson is... is a... is a librarian, I suppose you'd say - or he was a librarian. Now he's very high up and grand but...
Charles Adrian
[laughs]
Michael Caines
... he's a wonderful, wonderful writer. Very clear writer.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] He's come from the library.
Michael Caines
He's come out of the library, yes.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Right.
Michael Caines
He's no longer in the new edition [sic] [laughing] section...
Charles Adrian
[laughs]
Michael Caines
... addition section. And here he is. This is Books As History and chapter one is Books In History and opposite this page, I should say, it is relevant that there's picture of Christ making some strange, probably very pious gesture at you with one hand and in the other hand propping up an absolutely beautiful book.
Charles Adrian
Intriguing.
Michael Caines
And it begins like this:
For many centuries, books have been emblems of our culture and regarded as one of the defining characteristics of developed civilisations. They have been symbolically central to many religions and they have been identified with learning and sound moral virtues. They have been signs, or even manifestations, of power and magic: Shakespeare's Prospero, whose library was “dukedom large enough”, was to be overthrown by seizing and destroying his books; Marlowe's Faustus would burn his books as a last desperate measure to save himself from damnation. The need to control the dangerous potential of this key medium of communication and information has exercised the minds of many political rulers, who have supported the approach taken in Ray Bradbury's Fahrenheit 451; the burning of books is an emotive cultural image. The coming of the book, and its subsequent spread to mass markets, has brought entertainment, education, political change, and spiritual or intellectual development to millions of people over the centuries. In Britain, we do not pay value added tax on books, because, like food and children's clothes, they are considered to be essential items, not optional luxuries. An eleventh-century mosaic (opposite) still surviving on the walls of St Sophia in Istanbul, depicting Christ flanked by the Emperor Constantine IX and his wife, nicely summarises the veneration and respect in which the book, and the idea of the book, has been held over many ages. The Emperor holds a bag of money, while Christ holds a book.
Books are also tremendously familiar objects, and easy to find. New ones are being produced all the time, and our libraries and bookshops are full of them, providing access to information, knowledge and cultural heritage. As historical artifacts go, they are still relatively cheap to acquire and abundant in supply. A nineteenth-century book, or even a seventeenth-century one, in sound contemporary condition, can often be bought for a fraction of the price which might be sought for a clock, or a picture, or some other household object of comparable date. It is not hard to...
Charles Adrian
Oh, I'm certainly going to read that. That's... I love that first page. I wonder... While you were reading that I was suddenly thinking that, you know, the burning of books is such a... is such a symbol for... for the destruction of an idea.
Michael Caines
[affirmative] Mmm.
Charles Adrian
I wonder how that works in an ebook economy. Do you... Do you have a, sort of... a town... town square deletion or...
Michael Caines
[laughs]
Charles Adrian
... or what happens?
Michael Caines
What an absolutely brilliant idea. You could... You could burn down one of those [laughs], you know, bunkers where all this information is kept out in the desert. You know, you could bomb it. [laughs]
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Oh, yeah, yeah, that's right. Yes, you could desecrate a bank of... what do they call that? Servers.
Michael Caines
Yes, that's it. [laughing] Yes.
Charles Adrian
Yes. [laughs]
Michael Caines
You could smash them up with an axe.
Charles Adrian
I'm going to play... The last thing that I'm going to play today is... is a song that you have had a hand in. So this is... this is Stephen M. Caines, presumably, singing here.
Michael Caines
I guess it is, yeah.
Charles Adrian
This is going to be Geek Of The Week by... by Spirit Of Play. Michael, it's been a pleasure to have you sitting opposite me today. Thank you very much.
Michael Caines
Thank you very much.
Music
[Geek Of The Week by Spirit Of Play]
[Initial transcription by https://otter.ai]