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Season 1 Episodes

For the 18th Second Hand Book Factory, Charles Adrian’s guest is maker and cheerleader, the kinaesthetic Anna Sulan Masing. They talk about the artist’s acceptance of bad work, the wonder of clouds and the (laudable) appropriation of children’s stories by adults and vice versa.

Correction: When Charles Adrian mentions the “Autocumulus lenticularis” cloud, he is, of course, talking about “Altocumulus lenticularis”.

The Cloudspotter’s Guide by Gavin Pretor-Pinney and The Nutcracker by E. T. A. Hoffman are also discussed in Page One 163.

This episode was recorded at the Wilton Way Café for London Fields Radio.

This episode has been edited to remove music that is no longer covered by licence for this podcast.

A transcript of this episode is below.

Episode released: 19th March, 2013.

Book listing:

A Spy In The House Of Love by Anaïs Nin

The Cloudspotter’s Guide by Gavin Pretor-Pinney

The Nutcracker by E. T. A. Hoffmann (trans. Anthea Bell)

Links:

Page One 163

Anna Masing

Charles Adrian

Episode Transcript:

Jingle
You're listening... you're listening... to London Fields Radio.

Charles Adrian
Hello and welcome to the 27th Page One. This is the 18th Second Hand Book Factory. I'm Charles Adrian and I'm here in the Wilton Way Cafe for London Fields Radio with this week's guest, Anna Sulang [sic] Masing [/mæsɪŋ/]. Nod if that's the right pronunciation... Yeah, apparently so. Great. Now, this is going to go out on about the 19th of March, I reckon, and the 20th of March, as it happens, is the first day of Spring. So here is Noah And The Whale with their song The First Days Of Spring.

Music
[The First Days Of Spring by Noah And The Whale]

Charles Adrian
So that was Noah And The Whale with The First Days Of Spring - which... which, if I listen to it very carefully, perhaps while I'm in the bath, does make me cry a little bit. Anna Masing, how nice to have you here!

Anna Masing
It's very lovely to be here. Thank you for inviting me. I get very excited about your show.

Anna and Charles Adrian
[laughter]

Charles Adrian
Yeah, well I... Yes. I mean, you are... you are one of my... one of my most vocal listeners, which is... which is always a pleasure.

Anna and Charles Adrian
[laughter]

Charles Adrian
Now, I've got... I want to ask you before I forget - because I do sometimes ask to forget people... [tuts] [laughing] I do sometimes forget to ask people - how do you describe yourself, Anna? How would you... how would you define yourself? You're... you're a high-level student. I think you can probably manage definitions.

Anna Masing
[laughs] I don't know. I guess there's two ways to maybe answer that question. The first one is, I think I'm a... as a... as a personality, I think I'm a good cheerleader.

Charles Adrian
Aha.

Anna Masing
I like to cheer people on. I like to see people be successful. And I like to watch people being successful. So I think I'm quite a good cheerleader.

Charles Adrian
[speaking over] That's great.

Anna Masing
[speaking over] If that makes sense.

Charles Adrian
Oh yes, absolutely.

Anna Masing
[speaking over] Yes? Yes. OK.

Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Yes. Yes. And I think every society needs several of those.

Anna Masing
Yeah. And I like people succeeding. And you know, it's nice. And I like to sit back and watch, you know, and so that's nice to...

Charles Adrian
[laughs] [speaking over] Yes. Okay. That's good.

Anna Masing
Yeah. Yeah, so cheerleader and then I guess I like... I guess... I like to make things...

Charles Adrian
[affirmative] Mmm hmm.

Anna Masing
... and I think it's really important to create and physically make things and put your thoughts and your body and your mind into creating something. So I think I'm a maker.

Charles Adrian
Okay.

Anna Masing
As opposed to... a 'creator' sounds, like, a bit, I don't know, in your head but I like to physically...

Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Right.

Anna Masing
... you know, the visceral side of things and making things and touching and feeling and that kind of... yeah.

Charles Adrian
That's nice. Do you think you're a... Do you think when you were younger you were a kinesth... kinesthetic learner?

Anna Masing
Definitely.

Charles Adrian
Right.

Anna Masing
Well, I was... I'm dyslexic. And so...

Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Aha.

Anna Masing
... as [sic] growing up, everything had to be touched and felt and...

Charles Adrian
Right.

Anna Masing
... stamped and... You know, I was the kid that was...

Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Nice.

Anna Masing
... the muddiest and the [indistinct] and... yeah.

Charles Adrian
[laughs] What a nightmare.

Anna Masing
[laughs]

Charles Adrian
Where do you... where do you come in your family? What's...?

Anna Masing
I'm the oldest.

Charles Adrian
Oh, you're the oldest. Okay.

Anna Masing
I'm the boss. Yeah. Yeah. [laughs]

Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Yeah. I suppose... Yeah, I could probably have guessed that. [laughs] Let's... let's start with the book that you like that you've brought.

Anna Masing
[speaking over] Okay. Um. I think maybe I'll just read the first page...

Charles Adrian
Go ahead. Yeah.

Anna Masing
... and then tell you what it's called etcetera.

Charles Adrian
Please do.

Anna Masing
OK.

The lie detector was asleep when he heard the telephone ringing.
At first he believed it was the clock ordering him to rise, but then he awakened completely and remembered his profession.
The voice he heard was rusty, as if disguised. He was... He could not distinguish what altered it: alcohol, drugs, anxiety or fear.
It was a woman's voice; but it could have been an adolescent imitating a woman, or a woman imitating an adolescent.
‘What is it?’ he said [sic]. ‘Hello. Hello. Hello.’
‘I had to talk to someone; I can't sleep. I had to call someone.’
‘You have something to confess...’
‘To confess?’ echoed the voice incredulously; this time, the ascending tonalities unmistakably feminine.
‘Don't you know who I am?’
‘No, I just dialled blindly. I've done this before. It is good to hear a voice in the middle of the night, that's all.’
‘Why a stranger? You could call a friend.’
‘A stranger doesn't ask questions.’
‘But it's my profession to ask questions.'
‘Who are you?’
‘A lie detector.’

Charles Adrian
Wow, that's really cool.

Anna Masing
It's a good first page, isn't it. Yeah.

Charles Adrian
[speaking over] It's a very good first page.

Anna Masing
It's my favourite author, Anaïs [/əneɪs/] Nin or Anaïs [/ænaɪs/] Nin. I don't know how to say that... No.

Charles Adrian
[speaking over] I don't know how to pronounce that. I've never read anything by her.

Anna Masing
She's... Yeah, she's brilliant. She's lovely. And it's called A Spy In The House Of Love. And I like this book... Actually, we were talking just before about possibilities and different possibilities and I think it just... It's obviously an old book. I don't know when she wrote it. Maybe in the 1920s, something around there, in the nineteen...

Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Okay.

Anna Masing
... or maybe... maybe not. Maybe 1940s, 50s. But she just talks about... It's a woman... a woman's life that... that I think gives an alternate possibility of how to live your life as a woman.

Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Right. Okay. Interesting.

Anna Masing
[speaking over] You know? And I think it's even relevant now. I mean, now it's still... I mean, it's not shocking, I would say, but it just...

Charles Adrian
[affirmative] Mmm hmm.

Anna Masing
... it just makes you think about that you can live... you don't have to follow...

Charles Adrian
Yes. OK.

Anna Masing
[speaking over] Yeah, it's just another possibility. And I think people - young women in particular - should read this... more young woman in particular should read this... Although it's probably considered a naughty book and not...

Charles Adrian
Is it? Is it a bit naughty?

Anna Masing
It is a bit naughty.

Charles Adrian
Okay. But that's no bad thing.

Anna Masing
I don't think it's a bad thing.

Anna and Charles Adrian
No.

Anna Masing
But I think it should be encouraged to... Yeah.

Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Yes. We might be... I wonder if the... if the part of it... if you say that it's a book about, you know, making your own choices, whether that's actually more scary for people than... than the naughtiness.

Anna Masing
[speaking over] Maybe. Absolutely. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. And... yeah.

Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Because it's surprising... You know, there's... there's is a, sort of, myth, I feel, that we're getting more and more liberal as... as society progresses and I don't think it's true.

Anna Masing
I don't... No, I don't think it is either. I think... And possibilities, I think...

Charles Adrian
I think there are surges and ebbs but... but...

Anna Masing
Yeah. Yeah, that's true. Possibilities do scare people. Yeah, I think that's quite a good... Mmm.

Charles Adrian
Was she... Anaïs Nin... I feel like she should be called Anaïs [/ænaɪs/] Nin because she's in a Jewel song. [sings] “You can be Henry Miller and I'll be Anaïs Nin.”

Anna Masing
[speaking over] Anaïs Nin.

Charles Adrian
Was she with Henry Miller at one stage?

Anna Masing
Yes. Well, she... They were very good friends and there was a little, sort of, triangular relationship between Henry Miller and his wife June and Anaïs Nin...

Charles Adrian
[speaking over] I see.

Anna Masing
... in Paris. And even though Anaïs was married...

Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Ah. Okay.

Anna Masing
... yes, so they had a very artistic, kind of, strange relationship. Yeah.

Charles Adrian
I see. I see. Interesting.

Anna Masing
But she's brilliant. There's lots of interviews with her on YouTube talking...

Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Ah. Does she have a nice voice?

Anna Masing
She's lovely. And she's just fascinating. And she just talks really... And I like her because she's done work that she's not proud of as well.

Charles Adrian
Okay. Yes. Yes.

Anna Masing
[speaking over] But it's all out there and published. And... and as an artist... whatever you are...

Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Yeah.

Anna Masing
... you have to do sometimes work that you're not necessarily proud of but it pays.

Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Yes, absolutely. Yeah, yeah.

Anna Masing
[speaking over] And I think... And she's quite honest about it. And she doesn't, like...

Charles Adrian
[speaking over] That's interesting.

Anna Masing
... say you can't watch it like... I don't know, like Johnny Depp. He bought all the rights to what was that TV programme he did when he first started?

Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Oh. Oh, right. I can't remember what it's called.

Anna Masing
So that... so that it can't be... the High School one...

Charles Adrian
[speaking over] [laughing] Oh really?

Anna Masing
... so, no, it can't be shown. You know, and it's like...

Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Right.

Anna Masing
... because he's not proud of that work. But you know, that's part of...

Charles Adrian
I think... Well, I also very strongly believe that getting over one's shame is an important part of being an artist.

Anna Masing
Yeah.

Charles Adrian
I think you have to accept that people will judge you badly, I think that's okay. And trust that they will...

Anna Masing
[speaking over] [laughing] Yeah. [indistinct]

Charles Adrian
... trust that they will find the things that are good as well.

Anna Masing
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Charles Adrian
I understand why people say I want to suppress this, this and...

Anna Masing
Yeah.

Charles Adrian
I'm the opposite. I want people to read everything. I want them to read...

Anna Masing
[speaking over] Yes. Yeah. Yes. [laughs]

Charles Adrian
... my emails and my... you know, the stuff I throw away. I don't want to give it to them but I want them to...

Anna Masing
Yes.

Charles Adrian
... you know... Actually that's... it's terrible. It sounds like an invitation to some journalist to come and root through my bins...

Anna Masing
[speaking over] And critique you.

Anna and Charles Adrian
[laughter]

Charles Adrian
... in twenty years' time when I am the famous author that I intend to be.

Anna Masing
Yes, yes. [laughs]

Charles Adrian
[laughing] Let's... Let's play the first track that you've suggested - which, happily, is one of my... I won't say favourite tracks. I love it. I do love it very much.

Anna Masing
Oh good.

Charles Adrian
And it is one that I listen to a lot. This is... this is played by Ralph Kirshbaum. Just because that happens to be the... the album that I have.

Anna Masing
Yeah.

Charles Adrian
It's the Prelude from Bach's Cello Suite Number One in G.

Music
[Prelude from Bach's Cello Suite No. 1 in G by Ralph Kirshbaum]

Charles Adrian
So that was the Prelude from Bach's Cello Suite Number One in G - very beautiful - played there by Ralph Kirshbaum. That was... so that little clip was my audition for BBC Radio 3. One day, who knows, [laughing] I'll be...

Anna and Charles Adrian
[laughter]

Charles Adrian
... I'll be the next Sarah Mohr-Pietsch.

Anna Masing
[speaking over] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Charles Adrian
So the second section of the show is my book for you, Anna.

Anna Masing
[gasps]

Charles Adrian
Have you heard of this book?

Anna Masing
No.

Charles Adrian
It's The Cloudspotter's Guide by the wonderfully named Gavin Pretor-Pinny.

Anna Masing
Ooo. [indisctinct] No. I like...

Charles Adrian
[speaking over] This is a... It's a beautiful book.

Anna Masing
I like...

Charles Adrian
[speaking over] It's... It looks nice, doesn't it?

Anna Masing
It's... Yes. Yes.

Charles Adrian
[speaking over] It's got a lovely picture on the front of blue sky with clouds in front. And I... What I thought was... Because you're... you're at the moment - at time of recording, I should say - writing up your... your PhD.

Anna Masing
Yes.

Charles Adrian
And I thought, once you've done that...

Anna Masing
Yes.

Charles Adrian
... you're going to have so much time...

Anna Masing
[laughs]

Charles Adrian
... and you are not going to know [laughing] what to do with yourself.

Anna Masing
[laughing] It's true.

Charles Adrian
And I spent a wonderful couple of months... Because I'd gone away to Italy and I only took a couple of books with me and one of them I finished in three days.

Anna Masing
[affirmative] Mmm.

Charles Adrian
And then I... like, “What am I going to do?” So I spent the rest of the time - I happened to have this one - and I spent the rest of the time just cloudspotting.

Anna Masing
[gasps]

Charles Adrian
It was fascinating. It really is absolutely wonderful, I think, to... you know, to think about how they're formed and...

Anna Masing
Yes.

Charles Adrian
... what they represent, you know, in terms of what weather's coming...

Anna Masing
Yup.

Charles Adrian
... or what the air is doing and things like that. I don't remember much about that anymore. It is wonderful. There are some wonderful pictures.

Anna Masing
When I... When... In high school, I really quite liked science...

Charles Adrian
Yeah.

Anna Masing
... and one of the things... I had... got a big obsession at one point about clouds.

Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Did you?

Anna Masing
Because I really liked the idea... because of the different shapes... that they're tall...

Charles Adrian
Yes. Right?

Anna Masing
... which you can't see...

Charles Adrian
Yes.

Anna Masing
... because we're looking at them from underneath.

Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Because you're underneath. Yes.

Anna Masing
Yes. So that sort of stuff. And I really like that. So yes...

Charles Adrian
Yeah.

Anna Masing
... that's exciting.

Charles Adrian
Yes. And there are some wonderful pictures. My favourite clouds, I'll just tell you...

Anna Masing
Yes.

Charles Adrian
... are the... actually, I wrote it down here because I wasn't sure I was going to be able to find it... Autocumulus [sic] lenticularis clouds. They look a bit like flying saucers. And I did actually see some of these clouds when I was in Italy. There's a... there's a picture of them.

Anna Masing
Oh, wow. Aren't they beautiful!

Charles Adrian
[speaking over] For those of you who can't see this picture, you should just look them up online. Autocumulus [sic] lenticularis. They're absolutely gorgeous clouds.

Anna Masing
They look like they've been painted...

Charles Adrian
They do.

Anna Masing
... like, there's brush strokes.

Charles Adrian
Absolutely.

Anna Masing
[affirmative] Mmm.

Charles Adrian
And it's to do with the the air, usually flowing over a mountain...

Anna Masing
[speaking over] Oh I see.

Charles Adrian
... and it goes up into an area of different temperature.

Anna Masing
[affirmative] Mmm.

Charles Adrian
So the water... the water condenses just for that moment. So this is in motion. This is not a...

Anna Masing
[speaking over] Oh wow.

Charles Adrian
... this is not a stationary cloud at all.

Anna Masing
[gasps]

Charles Adrian
The cloud is stationary but the particles inside it are moving. Isn't that amazing?

Anna Masing
[speaking over] Oh that's lovely. Oh I like that. I like that a lot.

Charles Adrian
[speaking over] I think that's so exciting. Anyway. So I'm going to read you the first page of the introduction, which more or less sets out why he... why he wrote this book. So...

INTRODUCTION
…..
I've always loved looking at clouds. Nothing in nature rivals their variety and drama; nothing matches their sublime, ephemeral beauty.
If a glorious sunset of Altocumulus clouds were to spread across the heavens only once in a generation, it would surely be amongst the principal legends of our time. Yet most people barely seem to notice the clouds, or see them simply as impediments to the ‘perfect’ summer's day, an excuse to feel ‘under the weather’. Nothing could be more depressing, it seems, than to have ‘a cloud on the horizon’.
A few years ago, I decided that this sorry state of affairs could not possibly be allowed to continue. The clouds deserved better than to be regarded merely as a metaphor for doom. Someone needed to stand up for clouds.
So, in 2004, I started a society devoted to doing just that. I called it The Cloud Appreciation Society and launched it during a lecture I gave at a literary festival in Cornwall. In case anyone at the talk felt moved to join the society, I'd made some official badges, and was surprised to see a rush of people come up for them at the end.
Of course, an organisation only exists when it has a website. So, a few months after the talk, I launched the society on the Internet. Initially - like the clouds themselves - membership was free, and word soon spread.
People sent in their cloud photographs, which I put up on the gallery pages for others to look at. The early trickle of submissions...

Anna Masing
Ooo, I like that a lot. Thank you so much.

Charles Adrian
[speaking over] There you go.

Anna Masing
Standing up for clouds! That is just perfect. I love that idea. [laughs]

Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Yes. [laughs] I think that's... [indistinct] I remember thinking that... you know, it's something that a lot of us do when we're children is looking at clouds...

Anna Masing
Yes! Yes, yes, yes.

Charles Adrian
... and the older we get the less I think we do that. And so I think this is a timely reminder that we should do more of that.

Anna Masing
[speaking over] Oh, this is... this is fantastic. Thank you. I feel very... Oh, this is brilliant. Perfect, perfect, perfect. And yes... and I will spend this summer looking at clouds and being footloose and fancy free.

Charles Adrian
Wonderful.

Jingle
London Fields Radio.... it's London Fields Radio.

Charles Adrian
So the last part of the show is... is Anna's book for me. As I have written on my sheet.

Anna Masing
[laughs]

Charles Adrian
As if I needed to remember. This is... this is... [laughing] the only part of the show I'm really interested in. What have you brought me?

Anna Masing
Well, I had... There were lots of things... Because you're such an interesting person, there were so many things I thought I could...

Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Oh Anna stop!

Anna and Charles Adrian
[laughter]

Anna Masing
There were so many things I thought I think you would like.

Charles Adrian
Yeah.

Anna Masing
But... Well, the last time I saw you, I guess, was in Berlin...

Charles Adrian
Maybe it was.

Anna Masing
... and so I've picked this because it is a German book.

Charles Adrian
[affirmative] Mmm hmm.

Anna Masing
And, yeah, I don't know. I just... It just felt right.

Charles Adrian
Okay.

Anna Masing
It's called The Nutcracker - The Nutcracker and the Mouse King - so it's what the original story of The Nutcracker...

Charles Adrian
[speaking] Right. Oh. Really? Oh, okay. By Hoffman?

Anna Masing
Yes. By E T... Et [/iːt/]... Eta [/iːtə/] Hoffman. Eta Hoffman?

Charles Adrian
I think it's E. T. A. Hoffman.

Anna Masing
E. T. A. Hoffman. Okay.

Charles Adrian
I... but I... I'm not...

Anna Masing
[speaking over] I think... I think you're right. Yeah.

Charles Adrian
[speaking over] I'm not going to give that as a definitive opinion.

Anna Masing
[laughs]

Charles Adrian
I think that's right. [laughs]

Anna Masing
And it's a really pretty book and it was a...

Charles Adrian
It's lovely. I love that... Because it's a, sort of, pale... very pale pink cover.

Anna Masing
[speaking over] Yeah, yes.

Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Sort of, powder pink.

Anna Masing
Yeah, yeah. Anyway, it's a pretty book. There's also another book... story in it as well...

Charles Adrian
Oh great.

Anna Masing
... called The Strange Child, which I haven't read but...

Charles Adrian
Okay.

Anna Masing
And just... the... this is... In comparison to the other book, where the other book is considered an adult book but I actually think...

Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Mmm hmm.

Anna Masing
... young people should read it, this is possibly considered a child's story but I don't think it's a child's story at all.

Charles Adrian
Right.

Anna Masing
It's... This is very scary.

Charles Adrian
I would li... That's great because I've seen the... I've seen the ballet and I found it a bit mystifying and I think I'll find the book quite illuminating.

Anna Masing
Yes. Yes. It's quite... And I love the ballet. But...

Charles Adrian
[affirmative] Mmm.

Anna Masing
So this book was quite... I don't know... shocking...

Charles Adrian
Okay.

Anna Masing
... in comparison. Yes.

Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Interesting. Read... Read to me.

Anna Masing
Okay.

CHRISTMAS EVE
ON THE TWENTY-FOURTH OF December Doctor Stahlbaum's children had to stay out of the sitting room all day, and they certainly were not allowed in [sic] the grand dining room next to it. Fritz and Marie sat close together in the corner of the [sic] back parlour. As evening came on twilight fell, but no one brought in a light as usual, which they felt was very eerie. Fritz, in a confidential whisper, told his younger sister (who was only seven years old) about the rustling and rattling and muted thumping he had heard in the next room. And not so long ago a dark-complexioned little man had gone down the corridor with a big box under his arm. Fritz said he knew that this could only be Godfather Drosselmeier. Marie clapped her [sic] hands for joy, and cried, “Oh, I wonder what lovely things Godfather Drosselmeier has brought us this time.”
Legal Councillor Drosselmeier was not a handsome man; he was small and thin, with a wrinkled face, and he had a big black patch over his right eye. He was bald, so he wore a very fine white wig made of glass, a...

Charles Adrian
Wow. “A fragile creation,” I imagine is the... [laughing] is the...

Anna Masing
I know! I love that it ends... that page ends on a...

Charles Adrian
[speaking over] That's fantastic.

Anna Masing
... a white wig of glass.

Charles Adrian
Yes! Because until then it was all very... you know, very standard, kind of, fare...

Anna Masing
[speaking over] Yeah.

Charles Adrian
... but that's brilliant.

Anna Masing
Yeah.

Charles Adrian
I really... I love thinking about what brothers and sisters say to each other when they're children.

Anna Masing
[agreeing] Mmm.

Charles Adrian
Because, you know, obviously, as an adult you spend... I spend more time thinking about how I interact, say, with my godchildren. They're the children I interact with most often. And so you have, like, a very particular kind of interaction, don't you?

Anna Masing
[speaking over] Relationship. Yes.

Charles Adrian
But... But brothers and sisters between themselves create whole worlds, don't they?

Anna Masing
Yes. Yes.

Charles Adrian
I remember talking in French with my sister when we were about five or six...

Anna Masing
Awww.

Charles Adrian
... I don't... you know, for quite long periods.

Anna Masing
Wow.

Charles Adrian
Just making up sounds, essentially...

Anna and Charles Adrian
[laughter]

Charles Adrian
... which we called ‘talking in French’.

Anna and Charles Adrian
[laughter]

Anna Masing
My... My interaction with my sister - my sister was a very lovely child...

Charles Adrian
[affirmative] Mmm.

Anna Masing
... and very sweet and, you know, nice - and I just... would just boss her round. “No, Rachel, you do it like this.” And she used to do ballet and I didn't...

Charles Adrian
[laughs]

Anna Masing
... but I would pretend to be the ballet teacher and she the student...

Charles Adrian
[laughs]

Anna Masing
... and tell her what to do.

Charles Adrian
That's fantastic. Wonderful. I want to ask you before we finish about your PhD. Do you... Do you feel prepared to talk about it or is this a bad time to...?

Anna Masing
No, I think it's okay. I'm feeling very positive at the moment about it...

Charles Adrian
Okay. Good.

Anna Masing
... although I need to do lots more work. But right now.... yeah. Because I've just got a - as I was telling you before - I've just got a new studio space and having a new space...

Charles Adrian
[affirmative] Hmm.

Anna Masing
... is very invigorating.

Charles Adrian
Yes, I can imagine that it is.

Anna Masing
[speaking over] So I'm feeling like this week it's going to be... lots of great things are going to happen. [laughs]

Charles Adrian
Right. It's interesting because your PhD is - from what I understand - is so much about telling stories and communicating...

Anna Masing
Yes.

Charles Adrian
... and being with [laughing] other people...

Anna Masing
Yes.

Charles Adrian
... and now, of course, it's the... it's the total opposite.

Anna Masing
I... It's been really difficult because of that - and I... and I like to talk about things and be with other people. Obviously. It's why I did what I'm doing.

Charles Adrian
Yes.

Anna Masing
And now I'm in the last couple of months, you know, just stuck by myself and having to write and it's very tricky. And PhDs, I think, are always emotional but once... when you start telling stories that are your own stories plus other people's stories, you feel very responsible to other people's stories. And so the... And so I...

Charles Adrian
[speaking over] I'm sure.

Anna Masing
I get quite emotional about making sure that I'm doing that justice...

Charles Adrian
Right.

Anna Masing
... and... as well as achieving the, sort of, critical things that I need to achieve and all that kind of stuff. But yeah, I... Yeah, I feel like a guardian at the moment...

Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Right.

Anna Masing
... of people's stories and that's quite...

Charles Adrian
Yeah.

Anna Masing
... hard. Yeah.

Anna Masing
[speaking over] Yeah, I can imagine.

Anna Masing
And I want to make [indistinct].

Charles Adrian
[speaking over] What's the... What's the title of the thesis? Or where does it start? What's the starting...?

Anna Masing
It's... I guess the question I'm asking is: Does identity change... How does identity change when space and location changes?

Charles Adrian
Okay.

Anna Masing
So I'm looking at migration stories of women.

Charles Adrian
Right. Wonderful. Well, I... Obviously, I wish you luck with the end of that process.

Anna Masing
[speaking over] Thank you.

Charles Adrian
I've never done it myself and I have a lot of respect for people who do.

Anna Masing
[laughs]

Charles Adrian
I think it's a... it's a massive task. So thank you very much to Anna Sulang [sic] Masing.

Anna Masing
Thank you.

Charles Adrian
Now, yeah... Should I call you Anna Sulang [sic] Masing or Anna Masing or just...? What's... What difference does it make for you?

Anna Masing
I say Anna Sulan Masing generally because Anna Masing...

Charles Adrian
Sulan! Of course! There's no g on that, is there?

Anna Masing
No. No. Sulan.

Charles Adrian
Sorry.

Anna Masing
That's all right.

Charles Adrian
It's the... it's the...

Anna Masing
It doesn't sound like you said a g there.

Charles Adrian
Good. Okay. I was swallowing it. Yes.

Anna Masing
[laughs]

Charles Adrian
There wasn't a g. [indistinct] what is he talking about? there was no g. Yeah.

Anna Masing
I say Sulan because people... when my name is written down they pronounce the last name ‘mazing’ [/meɪzɪŋ/]...

Charles Adrian
Yes, which... yes. Okay.

Anna Masing
[speaking over] ... and so then I often get Miss A Masing [/meɪzɪŋ/] or Miss Anna Masing [/meɪzɪŋ/] which sounds like I've made up my name and...

Charles Adrian
[laughs] Yeah. Okay.

Anna Masing
[speaking over] ... so I throw the Sulan in there so that people don't...

Charles Adrian
And it... Actually, it's more... you're more likely to say Masing [/mæsɪŋ/], I think, if you've already said Sulan.

Anna Masing
Yes, exactly. Exactly. Yeah.

Charles Adrian
[speaking over] It's very clever. Okay.

Anna Masing
[laughs]

Charles Adrian
Okay. So thank you very much for coming in.

Anna Masing
Thank you for inviting me.

Charles Adrian
And this is... So this is This Is Love by PJ Harvey.

Music
[This Is Love by PJ Harvey]

[Initial transcription by https://otter.ai]