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(Background noise might make this episode a challenging listen.)
Episode image is a detail from the cover of OutThere Magazine, edited by Martin Perry and Uwern Jong, published in 2012 by Brown Tiger Limited; cover photograph of Bent ‘Herr von Eden’ Jensen by Ewe Jens.
Uwern Jong, the man behind Boutique Marketing and OutThere publishing, joins Charles Adrian to talk about cruising over the cucumbers in Tesco Mare Street, the usefulness of grouping LGBT people together under one umbrella and one or two memories of their shared schooldays. Charles Adrian’s duvet cover, incidentally, was grey.
You can find out more about Uwern’s company Boutique Marketing here.
You can find out more about OutThere here.
Tales Of The City by Armistead Maupin is also discussed in Page One 61 and Page One 171.
OutThere Magazine: The Style Issue edited by Martin Perry and Uwern Jong is also discussed in Page One 163.
The importance of grouping LGB and T together is discussed further in Page One 186.
This episode was recorded at the Wilton Way Café for London Fields Radio.
This episode has been edited to remove music that is no longer covered by licence for this podcast.
A transcript of this episode is below.
Episode released: 2nd April, 2013.
Book listing:
Tales Of The City by Armistead Maupin
The Well Of Loneliness by Radcliffe Hall
OutThere Magazine: The Style Issue ed. Martin Perry and Uwern Jong
Links:
Episode transcript:
Jingle
You're listening... you're listening to London Fields Radio.
Charles Adrian
Hello and welcome to the 29th Page One. This is Charles Adrian recording at the Wilton Way Café in Hackney for London Fields Radio. This is the 19th Second Hand Book Factory and I'm going to start this week with my guest's first choice. This is California Girls by Katy Perry featuring Snoop Dogg.
Music
[California Girls by Katy Perry feat. Snoop Dogg.]
Charles Adrian
So that was California Girls by Katy Perry featuring Snoop Dogg and sitting opposite me today in his very own Daisy Dukes is Uwern Jong. Hello Uwern. [laughs]
Uwern Jong
[speaking over] Hello. How are you?
Charles Adrian
I'm very well, thank you, I'm... I'm wet because it rained while I was cycling here. Tell me... tell me about yourself, Uwern. Describe yourself. What do you... What are you? What do you do? What... How would you... Like, if you had... If you're networking, what do you tell people about yourself?
Uwern Jong
Ooo if I'm networking, I can tell them a million and one things but really my name is Uwern. Spelled bizarrely, quite... quite strangely. [spelling] U W E R N.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Yeah, it's spelled, kind of, phonetically, isn't it.
Uwern Jong
Yeah. Blame my mother for that one. I tell people she's a hippie but she's not.
Charles Adrian
[laughs]
Uwern Jong
She really liked the name and she decided she was going to put it into Malaysian phonetics so in any occasion that I would end up back in Malaysia...
Charles Adrian
Aha!
Uwern Jong
... people would be able to say it perfectly but it ended up...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] That makes sense.
Uwern Jong
I guess it did in her head at the time but...
Charles Adrian
Yeah.
Uwern Jong
... as a result, no one says it in the right way.
Charles Adrian
[laughs] Okay.
Uwern Jong
But I... I do... I do a mix of things really. I'm local to London Fields. Hello. Hello London Fields. I do a mix of things. I... My day job... I am... I work in PR and marketing. I run a company called Boutique, which is a marketing agency that focuses on lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender issues and we help brands reach LGBT audiences. And my evening job, which is my hobby and, sort of, what keeps me sane... my muse... is I run a publishing house called OutThere and we produce a range of magazines that are, sort of, non-mainstream, nonconformist. Again, focused on gay culture and queer culture.
Charles Adrian
[affirmative] Mmm hmm.
Uwern Jong
The arts, travel, activism and style.
Charles Adrian
Okay. That's pretty... That's... that's pretty comprehensive.
Uwern Jong
[laughs]
Charles Adrian
I would... If I were networking... If I were networking with you...
Uwern Jong
[speaking over] No sleep. No sleep.
Charles Adrian
Yeah, well, that's the impression I get from your Facebook feed, I have to admit.
Uwern Jong
Have you been stalking me on Facebook, Adrian?
Charles Adrian
I don't stalk... Like, stalking is not the word. You pop up all the time on my newsfeed.
Uwern Jong
[speaking over] Oh. So I'm... I... Yeah, I am a serial Facebooker, I guess. Well, let's put some context to this. Adrian and I went to school together. So it's been fifteen years since we left school.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Yeah.
Uwern Jong
Fifteen years to the day we were doing our A-level exams?
Charles Adrian
Um. Yeah. And we've seen each other once in that time.
Uwern Jong
We have.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] For about an hour.
Uwern Jong
It's amazing how time flies and we've...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Yeah.
Uwern Jong
... you know... I guess our lives have been quite parallel really but, you know, we do... I, kind of...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] I've been... I've definitely been aware of what you've been up to. So tell me now... Tell me what... what book [clears throat]... what book have you brought that you like?
Uwern Jong
I... I... Obviously, being someone heavily involved in LGBT issues, I bought a gay book. It is... The reason why we played Katy Perry, California Girls, is because this book is set in San Francisco and, actually, it's a really famous book by an English author who now lives in San Francisco. And, actually, if you tune into the BBC... Are we allowed to say that? If you tune into the BBC...
Charles Adrian
[laughs] Yes.
Uwern Jong
... late night, 10:45, the book has been serialised and read. So, it is Armistead Maupin's Tales Of The City.
Charles Adrian
Are you... Is he an English writer?
Uwern Jong
He is an English writer...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] You're not serious.
Uwern Jong
... he's very English. But...
Charles Adrian
But when he talks, he sounds American.
Uwern Jong
He... he has lived in San Francisco for a long, long time.
Charles Adrian
I had... I never knew that. That's...
Uwern Jong
With a name like Armistead Maupin. You couldn't get more English than that.
Charles Adrian
No, that is a totally made-up name.
Uwern Jong
[laughs]
Charles Adrian
Nobody's called... I've never met anyone called Armistead. That's amazing!
Uwern Jong
Um. Well, yeah. No, I...
Charles Adrian
This is going to go up on the second of April, by the way, so anyone tuning into Radio [laughing] 4 at 10:45, you may be disappointed.
Uwern Jong
I think it's... um... it's being serialised in the original way. So I think it's being... And he... I don't know if you know how prolific he is, but he has... he does write a lot of books and I think they're doing the whole lot. So it could be months and months and months and months...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Cool. No, I've read them all. I've read them all. Yeah.
Uwern Jong
... of serialising. Because they were originally serialised for a local newspaper in San Francisco that's completely skipped my mind. I can't remember what it's called. But...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Yes. I think I should know as well.
Uwern Jong
It was... You know, it was a week-on-week episode. It was a then soap. So there's a lot of it.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Well, they read very like a soap, I think. I mean, I... I swallowed them all. I bought them when I was in Paris and they were extremely expensive because English books in Paris are expensive...
Uwern Jong
[speaking over] Right.
Charles Adrian
... and... but I just... I was totally addicted.
Uwern Jong
Did you buy it from that Shakespeare place in Paris? There was some, like, famous English bookstore.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] No! I know there is. No, I went to the W. H. Smith on...
Uwern Jong
[laughs] Shame! [laughs]
Charles Adrian
There was a... There was one W. H. Smith opposite the Louvre, as far as I remember, which sold English books. That was the, kind of, English bookshop.
Uwern Jong
[speaking over] Right... Right.
Charles Adrian
And less kooky than Shakespeare and Company.
Uwern Jong
[disappointed] Aww. [laughs]
Charles Adrian
Yeah. But... yeah. [laughs] Read... read us the first page.
Uwern Jong
Taking the plunge
Mary Ann Singleton was twenty-five years old when she saw San Francisco for the first time.
She came to the city alone for an eight-day vacation. On the fifth night, she drank three Irish coffees at the Buena Vista, realized that her Mood Ring was blue, and decided to phone her mother in Cleveland.
‘Hi, Mom. It's me.’
‘Oh, darling. Your daddy and I were just talking about you. There was this crazy man on McMillan and Wife who was strangling all these secretaries, and I just couldn't help but thinking...’
‘Mom...’
‘I know. Just crazy ol' Mom, worrying herself sick over nothing. But you can... you never can tell about those things. Look at that poor Patty Hearst, locked up in that closet with all those awful...’
‘Mom... long distance.’
‘Oh... yes. You must be having a grand time.’
‘God... you wouldn't believe it! The people here are so friendly. I feel like I've...’
‘Have you been to the Top of the Mark like I told you?’
‘Not yet.’
‘Well, don't you dare miss that! You know, your daddy took me there when he got back from the South Pacific...’
Charles Adrian
Fantastic. I was... I'm quite sad that the... the pet rock didn't appear in that page.
Uwern Jong
[laughs]
Charles Adrian
[laughs] [indistinct] There are so many things that I remember from the series. The pet rock, the... the... what was it? The... the jockey short dance competition that Mouse does?
Uwern Jong
Aha! Funny you should remember that. [laughs]
Charles Adrian
The Mai Tais... [laughs] Yeah, that affected me at the time.
Uwern Jong
Um, yeah. And, I think...
Charles Adrian
The Chinese baby!
Uwern Jong
... the cruising in...
Charles Adrian
The cruising!
Uwern Jong
... the cruising in the supermarket... the grocery store.
Charles Adrian
Yes. That was amazing.
Uwern Jong
[speaking over] Which I think happens at Tescos Mare Street.
Charles Adrian
Does it? Does it?
Uwern Jong
[laughs]
Charles Adrian
I've... I've never... I've... You know, I'm not... I don't make eye contact with people in my local Sainsburys but...
Uwern Jong
Oh, why not?
Charles Adrian
... perhaps I should start doing that.
Uwern Jong
Talking over the... you know, the cucumber display...
Charles Adrian
[laughs]
Uwern Jong
... is always really interesting, particularly at Tesco Mare Street.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] [indistinct] it would be really awkward. [laughs] Yes! Let's... let's play your second track, which is also San Francisco themed, which is why I've put it here because I... I knew... You said: “My book is to do with San Francisco” and I thought: “I know what that's going to be”.
Uwern Jong
[laughs]
Charles Adrian
But, anyway, this is... this is I Left My Heart In San Francisco by Tony Bennett, which is... which is fab.
Music
[I Left My Heart In San Francisco by Tony Bennett]
Charles Adrian
That was Tony Bennett singing I Left My Heart In San Francisco. Now, this part of the show is where I... I give you the book that I think you should have.
Uwern Jong
I'm excited.
Charles Adrian
And... So I don't know... I have no idea whether you'll have read this book or not...
Uwern Jong
Okay.
Charles Adrian
... but it was a fairly... for me, a fairly obvious choice. I had... I mean, there were several books... I wanted to give you a history of homosexuality but then I thought...
Uwern Jong
[laughs]
Charles Adrian
... firstly I can' t be bothered to carry it. It's a big book.
Uwern Jong
[laughs]
Charles Adrian
And secondly, I'm not sure if you'd ever bother to wade...
Uwern Jong
[laughing] We have... we have a very rich history.
Charles Adrian
... wade through it. But this is... this is Radclyffe Hall's...
Uwern Jong
[laughs]
Charles Adrian
... The Well Of Loneliness. Have you read this?
Uwern Jong
I haven't, no, but I've heard a lot about it.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Ah. Well there you go. You should read it. And I think it's interesting. It's... On the front it s... there's a quote from the Irish Times saying this is the bible of lesbianism. In fact, it's not at all. I don't think it has anything to do with lesbianism. It's... it's... it's about a trans man who is in love with a married woman. And so I think it's quite an interesting thing to read now. Because it was a very early exploration of alternative sexualities, if you like. It was first published... Ah, actually I don't know what it was... Oh, 28. So 1928.
Uwern Jong
[affirmative] Mmm hmm. Wow. Okay.
Charles Adrian
And it was banned for a long time, of course.
Uwern Jong
Of course.
Charles Adrian
And... and it's been considered a, sort of, you know... one of the earliest lesbian novels but it's really more about transgressive sexuality, I think.
Uwern Jong
Right.
Charles Adrian
And the main character's called Stephen Gordon.
Uwern Jong
[affirmative] Mmm hmm.
Charles Adrian
It says here: “Stephen Gordon, named by a father desperate for a son is not like other girls. She hunts, she fences, she read books... she reads books, wears trousers and longs to cut her hair.” [laughs]
Uwern Jong
Wow.
Charles Adrian
So there you go.
Uwern Jong
That sounds fantastic.
Charles Adrian
It's a... it's... it's not a terribly well-written book, but it's interesting. Look at the picture of Radclyffe Hall there.
Uwern Jong
Oh wow.
Charles Adrian
She's amazing, isn't she.
Uwern Jong
She is.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] A bowler hat or... not quite a bowler hat. A fedora maybe. [indistinct]
Uwern Jong
I think you see a lot of people trotting around East London looking like that today.
Charles Adrian
Absolutely. So Marguerite Radclyffe Hall is her full name. She was born in 1883 and educated at King's College, Cambridge. So I'm going to read you the first page.
Uwern Jong
Okay.
Charles Adrian
BOOK ONE
CHAPTER ONE
1
Not very far from Upton-on-Severn - between it, in fact, and the Malvern Hills - stands the country seat of the Gordons of Bramley; well timbered, well cottaged, well fenced and well watered, having, in this latter respect, a stream that forks in exactly the right position to feed two large lakes in the grounds.
The house itself is of Georgian red brick, with charming circular windows near the roof. It has dignity and pride without ostentation, self-assurance without arrogance, repose without inertia; and a gentle aloofness that, to those who know its spirit, but adds to its value as a home. It is indeed like certain lovely women who, now old, belong to a bygone generation - women who in youth were passionate but seemly; difficult to win but, when won, all-fulfilling. They are passing away, but their homesteads remain, and such a homestead is Morton.
To Morton Hall came the Lady Anna Gordon as a bride of just over twenty. She was lovely as only an Irish woman can be, having that in her bearing that betokened quiet pride, having that in her eyes that betokened great longing, having that in her body that betokened happy promise - the archetype of the very perfect woman, whom creating God has found good. Sir Philip had met her away in County Clare - Anna Molloy, the slim virgin thing, all chastity, and his weariness had flown to her bosom as a spent bird will fly to its nest - as indeed such a bird had once flown to her, she told him, taking refuge from the perils of a storm.
Sir Philip was a tall man and exceedingly well-favoured, but his charm lay less in feature than in a certain wide expression, a tolerant expression that might almost be called noble, and in something sad yet gallant in his deep-set hazel eyes. His chin, which was firm, was very slightly cleft, his forehead intellectual, his hair tinged with auburn.
There you go. That's the first page.
Uwern Jong
Wow. That sounds fantastic.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] A rather ponderous first page, I think.
Uwern Jong
[speaking over] I can't wait to read that.
Charles Adrian
Do.
Uwern Jong
Thank you.
Charles Adrian
It has wonderful descriptions of horse riding, as far as I remember, and... and a kind of hopeless love.
Uwern Jong
I love that it's called the bible of lesbianism.
Charles Adrian
The bible of lesbianism.
Uwern Jong
That's very good marketing. I'm dying to know what that means.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] But this is... this is... I mean, a question I have. And I think you're well... you're well-placed to answer this is why... whether this... this, kind of, grouping together of LGB and T is really... is really necessary anymore or useful. Because I feel as though each of those groups has a very different set of needs and challenges. And I feel particularly that to be transgender is not at all like being gay.
Uwern Jong
[speaking over] Oh no, I totally agree with you. This is something that comes up in my work all the time. LGB is a sexuality issue... is a sexual orientation issue, where being T is a gender issue.
Charles Adrian
Yeah.
Uwern Jong
Which are two completely separate things. You know, one...
Charles Adrian
And I feel like they're quite misunderstood a lot of the time.
Uwern Jong
Yeah, I think... I think it's just societal's norm to group everyone together.
Charles Adrian
Yeah.
Uwern Jong
Not so long ago, you know, we were all grouped as one: misfits, regardless of what your racial...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Well, exactly. Yeah.
Uwern Jong
... or ethnic or sexuality or gender or whatever. So... And I think tides are changing. However, yes, I think it's very difficult being someone who is transgender. And I still think there's a long way to go.
Charles Adrian
So... Yeah, so read that book. See what you think.
Uwern Jong
I will! I'm really excited about it.
Charles Adrian
So I'm going to read... I'm going to... not read you. I've read you... I've read to you now.
Uwern and Charles Adrian
[laughter]
Charles Adrian
I'm going to play you a track that I have chosen. This is by The Blow Monkeys. It's a track from Dirty Dancing and it's called You Don't Own Me. And I've always seen this as a gay track.
Uwern Jong
[laughs]
Music
[You Don't Own Me by The Blow Monkeys]
Jingle
London Fields Radio... it's London Fields Radio.
Charles Adrian
So that was You Don't Own Me by The Blow Monkeys. And now this is the third part of the show and this is the part in which Uwern will give me a book.
Uwern Jong
A book. [laughs] I'm cheating slightly.
Charles Adrian
[laughs]
Uwern Jong
Shameless, almost. Shameless plug. I have brought you a copy of the latest issue...
Charles Adrian
Oh, amazing!
Uwern Jong
of my magazine.
Charles Adrian
Fantastic.
Uwern Jong
It's called OutThere. I'm not here to plug it. Really [indistinct] I'm not here to plug it.
Charles Adrian
[laughs]
Uwern Jong
I just think it'd be really interesting read based on everything that we've talked about today. I've got two or three books in my bag to be honest but I'm going to give you this one that's a magazine.
Charles Adrian
You shouldn't apologise. If I'd... if I had published a book, I would give to everyone who came on my show.
Uwern and Charles Adrian
[laughter]
Uwern Jong
It's a magazine, really, but a book-azine, a coffee table book called OutThere: Homoculture, Voices, Fun and Travel. And it's basically as it says on the tin. What it's trying to do is to offer a non-mainstream view on queer and gay culture. That's not just about boys in bikini briefs and clubbing and Mikonos holidays and, you know, the... the... the obvious.
Charles Adrian
Yeah.
Uwern Jong
What we're trying to do is to say that, you know, there is culture in...
Charles Adrian
Yeah.
Uwern Jong
... in our community. And we are providing a platform for those voices who are less commercial and less heard to be heard. I won't spoil it for you. But, you know, delve in.
Charles Adrian
I will. I will.
Uwern Jong
[speaking over] So there's not so much one thing to talk about in this... in this book.
Charles Adrian
Is there a first page?
Uwern Jong
What I will read you is the opening...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Is there an editorial?
Uwern Jong
... page. I'll probably read you the Editor's Letter too, quickly...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Okay.
Uwern Jong
... so you get a sense of what's in it but...
Charles Adrian
Cool.
Uwern Jong
... I'll read you a quote by one of my favourite... favourite people, called Quentin Crisp. Yeah. I will do him no justice. So go to Wikipedia and look him up - Quentin Crisp.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] You have to do his voice, Uwern.
Uwern Jong
I won't.
Uwern and Charles Adrian
[laughter]
Uwern Jong
But he... he had a fantastic quote. He said:
Fashion is not style. Nay, we can say more: Fashion is instead of style. Style is an idiom springing spontaneously from the personality but deliberately maintained. If you have no personality, you may be able to save your face and, possibly, your entire anatomy by following the current fashion, but all we shall know about you, when we see you coming down the street, is that you had enough money to buy a glossy magazine and were sufficiently cunning to work out the cut of the garments shown therein.
Which we thought was an interesting way of framing an issue completely based on style. But, just to give you a sense of what's in the actual magazine, I'll read you the Editor's Letter:
As Gore Vidal once said, “Style is knowing who you are, what you want to say, and not giving a damn.” These qualities are personified in our enigmatic cover star, the German designer Bent ‘Herr Von Eden’ Jensen and OUT THERE is the only way to describe the latest collections from both the heir apparent of America's burgeoning menswear scene, Thom Browne, and the darling of New York's avant garde, Asher Levine, with his futuristic, alien-inspired appendages. We are proud to present all men's work in exclusive OUT THERE shoots.
Over the past few years, traditional tailoring has undergone a real Renaissance... Renaissance and is now firmly re-established in the wardrobes of sartorially savvy men across the world [sic] [...]
But style is not only manifested visually; the way we smell is becoming a [sic] character-defining, if invisible, accessory. We talk to two of the world's leading maverick noses, Alessandro Gaultieri and Christopher Brosius, about the cutting edge of men's fragrance.
Always on the search for exciting exponents of Homoculture, we profile queer image-makers specialising in male figures, spanning the generations from Barbara Sandler, who has been painting men for four decades; via Colombian artist Miguel Ángel Rojas, whose work documenting 1970s Bogotá still resonates today; through the youthful and talented Jeff Hahn, who has been rocking the pages of style bibles from ID to Italian Vogue.
And [sic] queer voices are central to OUT THERE. We feature a moving personal account of what it's like to be gay in the Middle East today […] and bring voices from the past back to life with two Tennessee Williams aficionados, director Robert Chevara and actor Tom Ross-Williams.
Our travel section takes a serious look at the gay travel business, examining the future of gay cruises, and [sic] we advise how to best spend your time in the real [sic] up-and-coming São Paolo.
Finally, we have some exciting OUT THERE news in the offing. So keep an eye out on our website and sign up to our Facebook page for updates. We know you're going to love what we have planned. We're OUT THERE. Are you? [sic]
Charles Adrian
Amazing. That sounds great. I'm really looking forward to reading that. Thank you very much, Uwern. Thank you for coming in. This is the end of the show.
Uwern Jong
No problem. My pleasure and so great to see you again.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] It's been... it's been such a pleasure. It's really nice to see you again. I'm going to play you something that is a memory for me of our... So it is... Like, from my point of view, it's a shared memory because you were there. I don't know whether you're going to remember this or not...
Uwern Jong
Right.
Charles Adrian
... but... So, dear listeners, Uwern and and I spent three years of our lives sleeping in the same room. Two years sleeping opposite each other. Which is bizarre, isn't it, to think about now.
Uwern Jong
Oh yes, right across the way. And you had a... I can't... I'm trying to... I was walking down today trying to picture what your duvet looked like but I can't remember.
Charles Adrian
[laughs]
Uwern Jong
Because I think a duvet says a lot about a person.
Charles Adrian
Yeah.
Uwern Jong
I had one that was a world map and I remember my...
Charles Adrian
Oh that's right, you did!
Uwern Jong
... my mother buying that, saying: “So you can tell people that you're from Malaysia and where Malaysia is because these white people might not know where Malaysia is.” [laughs]
Charles Adrian
That's right.
Uwern Jong
I said: “Give them some credit.” But you didn't. [laughs]
Charles Adrian
No, we didn't. [laughs] Nor were we very interested, frankly.
Uwern Jong
No. No, you weren't. [laughs]
Charles Adrian
Unfortunately. [laughs] But I remember... So I remember one... one night when I was in the fifth form... when we were in the fifth form...
Uwern Jong
[curious] Uh huh.
Charles Adrian
... the... the boys in the dormitory singing Stay Another Day by East 17. Do you remember this?
Uwern Jong
Oh my god. Yes!
Charles Adrian
And I think it's because one of them had been caught taking drugs and the dinner ladies chalked that up. This was important news. They'd chalked that up in the dining room, that someone had been caught taking drugs and that East 17 was no more.
Uwern Jong
[laughs]
Charles Adrian
[laughing] And this was obviously... this obviously affected our peers, Uwern. And I was surprised...
Uwern Jong
[speaking over] Oh god.
Charles Adrian
... because it seemed to me to be a very gay thing to do.
Uwern Jong
[affirmative] Uh huh.
Charles Adrian
And they were very not gay people that we were sharing a dorm with. But [indistinct]...
Uwern Jong
I don't know. I think you'd be surprised.
Charles Adrian
[laughs]
Uwern Jong
I'm not revealing any secrets. But, clearly, you know, out of fifteen boys, two of us were definitely, so...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Well there was never very much question.
Uwern Jong
[speaking over] And I could probably name a couple more. [laughs]
Charles Adrian
Go on. We'll listen to this and you can tell me. [laughs]
Uwern Jong
No I won't. [laughs]
Charles Adrian
This is... so this is Stay Another Day by East 17. Thank you very much, Uwern.
Uwern Jong
You're welcome. Thank you so much for having me.
Music
[Stay Another Day by East 17]
[Initial transcription by https://otter.ai]