Find Page One on APPLE PODCASTS or STITCHER.
Episode image is a detail from the cover of Un Omosessuale Normale by Angelo Pezzana, published in 2010 by Stampa Alternativa; the sculpture is ‘Gay Liberation’ by George Segal.
Taking a break from rehearsing their new show, Charles Adrian sits down somewhere in Italy with OHT founder Filippo Andreatta to discuss the importance of failure, the situation of gay people in Italy and those moments of false politeness that we all have to go through.
You can find out more about the Villa Nappi, where this conversation takes place, here.
The show Charles Adrian is working on with Filippo is Autoritratto Con Due Amici (Self-Portrait With Two Friends), which you can read more about here. The other performer in this show is Patric Schott, who is featured in Page One 44.
You can find out more about the Beatles Museum in Halle here.
Gli Uomini, Che Mascalzoni…, which Filippo mentions, is a 1931 film whose title is translated into English as What Scoundrels Men Are!
Brief Interviews With Hideous Men by David Foster Wallace is also discussed in Page One 169. Another book by David Foster Wallace, This Is Water, is discussed in Page One 71. He is also discussed in Page One 19 and Page One 160.
This episode was recorded at the Villa Nappi in Polverigi for London Fields Radio.
This episode has been edited to remove music that is no longer covered by licence for this podcast.
A transcript of this episode is below.
Episode released: 2nd September, 2013.
Book listing:
Extremely Loud And Incredibly Close by Jonathan Safran Foer
Un Omosessuale Normale by Angelo Pezzana
A Radically Condensed History Of Postindustrial Life from Brief Interviews With Hideous Men by David Foster Wallace
Links:
Episode transcript:
Jingle
You're listening... you're listening... to London Fields Radio.
Charles Adrian
Hello and welcome to the 51st Page One. This is the 36th Second Hand Book Factory. I'm Charles Adrian and I'm here in the gardens of the Villa Nappi in Polverigi, which is near Ancona on the east coast of Italy, with Filippo Andreatta.
Filippo Andreatta
Hello.
Charles Adrian
Did I pronounce that well?
Filippo Andreatta
Yeah, that was fine.
Charles Adrian
Was that okay?
Filippo Andreatta
Ciao Adrian.
Charles Adrian
This is... So this is the song I associate most with you at the moment. This is Any Fun by Coconut Records.
Music
[Any Fun by Coconut Records]
Charles Adrian
So that was Any Fun by Coconut Records sung by Jason Schwartzman.
Filippo Andreatta
Yup.
Charles Adrian
Filippo, I would like you to describe yourself.
Filippo Andreatta
Okay. I come from Italy, I'm thirty-two years old right now, and I'm working in theatre mainly and a little bit sometimes periodically in visual art. And what else? I'm just now stuck into rehearsals of two different projects. The first one is a project of theatre performance and we're working on the theme of failure and how important [it] is to fail into art-making because it means somehow that you are, so to say, making research. But, like, when people are not making art failure is something that they don't really like to talk about. So I really love this difference of failing and perceiving the failure too in these different ways. And, yeah. And that's it, basically. And the other project we are going to work on is a little performance on a text of architecture on the history of skyscrapers and the history of Manhattan. And we just actually forget [indistinct] the book. We play to be four characters in a city - lost somehow in a city. We keep talking to each other but we don't understand each other.
Charles Adrian
Cool.
Filippo Andreatta
This is more or less what I'm doing. I don't know. I have a dog, if that makes any sense to understand my person.
Charles Adrian
You have a dog?
Filippo Andreatta
Yes I do have a dog.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Oh, yes, you do have a dog. Sorry. Yeah, tell us about the name of your dog.
Filippo and Charles Adrian
[laughter]
Filippo Andreatta
That's not a really nice argument because it's kind of embarrassing and I have a big problem with the name of my dog, which is... I call him Mr. Dog but actually, technically, the dog belongs to my mother because she spends much more time with the dog than me because we don't live together and my mother calls the dog Buck [/buːk/], which is the wrong Italian accent for Buck [/bʌk/].
Charles Adrian
For Puck?
Filippo Andreatta
Buck.
Charles Adrian
Buck.
Filippo Andreatta
Yeah, that's... How you call it in English - The Call Of... Il Richiamo della Foresta by Jack London. How is it called, the dog in that
Charles Adrian
Oh, I have no idea. I've never read any Jack London.
Filippo Andreatta
No?
Charles Adrian
No.
Filippo Andreatta
That's good for you.
Charles Adrian
Okay. Okay.
Filippo Andreatta
I think. I don't know.
Charles Adrian
I see. So the... Okay, I see.
Filippo Andreatta
And...
Charles Adrian
Because it sounds fun. I mean, it's... Book is a nice name for a dog [laughs] in my opinion.
Filippo Andreatta
[laughs] Somehow. Because you can read it?
Charles Adrian
Exactly.
Filippo Andreatta
I've no idea.
Charles Adrian
And conveniently that brings us on to...
Filippo and Charles Adrian
[laughter]
Charles Adrian
... the topic of the podcast. What is your... What is the book that you like?
Filippo Andreatta
Well, it's kind of difficult because probably it's changing depending on the time when you read something.
Charles Adrian
Of course.
Filippo Andreatta
Well, I've just taken two... I have to admit that in the last years the writers that I like the most are, by chance actually, all American contemporary writers, so to say. So I've taken two of them. And my favourite one now is a book that I've read a few years ago and it's by Jonathan Safran Foer, which is a very well known author, and it's his second book. And it's Incredibly Loud... No, how you say? Incredibly Loud, Incredibly Close? Very Loud, Incredibly Close.
Charles Adrian
Okay. Could be I haven't read it.
Filippo Andreatta
Yeah. Or the other way around. I never remember the title actually.
Charles Adrian
Right. I'll look it up before I make the notes for this podcast.
Filippo Andreatta
And it's a very nice book. They also made a movie, which is not that brilliant obviously, somehow, [in] which he's played by Tom Hanks. The film is not that good but the book is wonderful. And I really love it because it happened by chance that I decided to read it and... And the beginning of the book it... somehow it puts into context Yellow Submarine by Beatles. And it was a time that...
Charles Adrian
Ah! Which I know is also a massive favourite of yours. Yeah.
Filippo Andreatta
And I started to read the book right after I was by chance in Halle, where there is this crazy, creepy, wonderful Museum about Beatles, and I got really involved into Yellow Submarine. And I got the album and the video. So I quite like it [in] a book as well. Yup. That's it. The book is wonderful because there are also a lot of graphics inside the book. So when you read it, it's kind of interactive, so to say, and... And it's a really nice book. I really recommend it. It's really beautiful.
Charles Adrian
Read us the first page.
Filippo Andreatta
Okay, I'm going to try to read it. Okay.
What about a teakettle? What if the spout opened and closed when the steam came out, so it would become a mouth, and it could whistle pretty melodies, or do Shakespeare, or just crack up with me? I could invent a teakettle that reads in Dad's voice, so I could fell [sic] asleep, or maybe a set of kettles that sings the chorus of “Yellow Submarine,” which is a song by The Beatles, who I love because entomology is one of my raisons d'être, which is a French expression that I know. Another good thing is that I could train my anus to talk when I farted. If I wanted to be extremely hilarious, I'd train it to say, “Wasn't me!” every time I made an incredibly bad fart. And if I ever made an incredibly bad fart in the Hall of Mirrors, which is in Versailles, which is outside of Paris, which is in France, obviously, my anus would say, “Ce n'étais pas moi!”
That's the first part of the book, which is really nice. And...
Charles Adrian
It's beautiful. I love it.
Filippo Andreatta
It's really nice. I mean, the main character is a nine years old boy so all the book is written through his eyes, so to say.
Charles Adrian
Yeah. Precocious nine year old by the sound of it.
Filippo Andreatta
Yeah. A bit. Yeah. For sure, I was not aware about Beatles when I was nine years and probably not even Versailles. Maybe my parents brought me there but I couldn't even remember.
Charles Adrian
Okay. So now your first track - or the first track you've chosen. Tell me... Tell me about it.
Filippo Andreatta
Well, I haven't... I don't know really. I just... I have decided to suggest two sounds that are within a movie. And by chance they're all about love. And actually a love which is tricky somehow, which is not really... probably it's not going work and somehow they make kind of apologies about that - “Yeah, please, it's good that we love each other even if we know that it's not going to work”. And this... The first one is performed by Vittorio De Sica. It's a pretty old song - I think it's from the ’30s - and it was inside this movie which the title is Gli Uomini, Che Mascalzoni and I can't translate it properly. The Men, What... so to say ‘bad people’ but not really bad people but bad people in a funny way. Mascalzoni, so to say.
Charles Adrian
So, like rascals or rogues maybe.
Filippo Andreatta
Yeah. Could be. I don't know the correct English word for that and... And here... Like, the moment in which they get the music in the movie is, like, when he brought her around with the car of the boss. He's actually the driver of someone else but he pretends to to own the car - to impress the girl obviously - and they get stuck in this little trattoria and they start to dance this song. And then they have a problem - he has to leave because the... I think the wife of the boss just shows up by chance at the trattoria and recognises the car. So here's what they dance.
Music
[Parlami D'Amore Mariù by Vittorio De Sica]
Charles Adrian
Great. Thank you. That was Parlami D'Amore Mariù by Vittorio De Sica. Now, I'm going to give you... This is... So this is my book for you.
Filippo Andreatta
Okay.
Charles Adrian
It's one I read very recently so... I had several... I wanted to give you an Italian book and I had a couple of Italian books that I could have given you but then I thought “This one, I think it will make you think of me”.
Filippo Andreatta
[laughs]
Charles Adrian
It's also about a very significant part of Italian history. It's called Un Omosessuale Normale...
Filippo Andreatta
O Dio! [laughs]
Charles Adrian
... by Angelo Pezzana.
Filippo Andreatta
Who is that?
Charles Adrian
You don't know him?
Filippo Andreatta
No, of course not.
Charles Adrian
So he, apparently...
Filippo Andreatta
Are you giving it to be... Do you think I'm homosexual? [laughs]
Charles Adrian
No, I think this will remind you of me, is why I'm giving it to you.
Filippo Andreatta
Ah okay.
Filippo and Charles Adrian
[laughter]
Charles Adrian
It's really...
Filippo Andreatta
You're telling me that you're homosexual? [laughs]
Charles Adrian
Normale is the important phrase in that... That's what I want you to remember, Filippo... [laughs]
Filippo Andreatta
Ah okay. [laughs]
Charles Adrian
... from now on. He started Fuori!, which was the first...
Filippo Andreatta
Fuori?
Charles Adrian
... kind of, gay liberation movement in Italy.
Filippo Andreatta
Okay. I had no idea about that.
Charles Adrian
It came before Arcigay or any of the... I don't know what else exists. And he's a... I don't know anything about him apart from what's in this book. He comes across as being an interesting guy. He's very opinionated. He doesn't mind making enemies, I think. He's very passionate about normalising homosexual relationships, essentially. And so a lot of this stuff you'll already know. I mean, it's not going to be news for you. But I think it's... some of it is interesting. And he talks about how life is better in Israel and life is better in the States and [laughing] how life is better in Britain, which I think is a little bit exaggerated sometimes, but it's also...
Filippo Andreatta
Kind of fair.
Charles Adrian
... it's kind of fair, in a way, when you think about, you know, this country here where we are now...
Filippo Andreatta
Oof.
Charles Adrian
... the kind of rights that gay people don't enjoy. It's quite shocking.
Filippo Andreatta
Not really. They don't have them.
Charles Adrian
They don't have much, do they?
Filippo Andreatta
Yeah, no, no, absolutely not. I have two friends. They are gay and they are both Italians. Somehow they moved to Belgium and they got married there. It was so weird because, I mean, the marriage was wonderful, we had a very good time. But it's like, when I talked with them, they tried to explain, like, where they are now in terms of bureaucratical status. And to get married in Brussels they had to get the official paper from Italy - from the state of Italy - that confirmed that they were single before to get married. Now they are officially married in Brussels and in a few European countries but in Italy they are not married. But they are neither singles anymore. So they are kind of...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] That is so strange.
Filippo Andreatta
... in a kind of limbo so to say. They can't get... They can't move any more.
Charles Adrian
That's very weird.
Filippo Andreatta
Yeah. It is kind of...
Charles Adrian
Yeah, it's very weird. Okay, so I'm going to try and read you the first page of this, which is the Premessa: Omosessuale Per Sempre so excuse my accent, which is very bad.
La domanda è impegnativa e tuttavia ineludibile: esiste un identità omosessuale? Messa in questi termini senza pluralità o sfumature, la risposta potrebbe essere negativa. Identità, però, è qualcosa di più complesso di una partenza e più articolato di una rigida identificazione con una categoria o con un comportamento. L'omosessualità è passata lungo i secoli da una negazione assoluta - con la conseguenta condanna a seconda del tipo di tribunale - fino al contemporaneo riconoscimento esplicito. Non c'è da stupirsi se uno stigma che ha attraversato millenni di storia umana abbia lasciato una così potente traccia di sé. Anche se figli di nostro tempo, abbiamo ereditato culture che hanno contribuito a costruire quella modernità che chiamiamo società civile. Il mio essere omosessuale in un paese occidentale del terzo millennio non può prescindere da quella che è stata la vicenda di millioni di altri miei simili che mi hanno preceduto e questo mi spinge a cercare di capire in quali contesti hanno vissuto, quali erano i leggi e i costumi che hanno governato le loro vite, come ha potuto svilupparsi e solidificarsi un ostilità che, pur non essendo mai riuscita a escludere l'amore del nostro destino, ha però impedito il naturale esprimersi di una sessualità che peraltro nulla aveva di asociale or di distrutivo nei confronti di quella prevalente. Anni fa in Dentro E Fuori (1995) ho voluto raccontare quello che era stato il percorso identitario che aveva segnata la mia avventura umana e politica. Era la mia intenzione scrivere un autobiografia che si muovesse tra il privato e il pubblico e nella quale ricordare i passagi più significativi della mia vita di attivista. Un libro nato dall'urgenza di communicare agli altri come un giovane omosessuale negli anni in cui diventa adulto senta l'imperiosa necessità di vivere senza ipocrasia e l'esigenza di combattere l'odio e l'ignoranza di una società che avrebbe voluto costringerlo a la clandestinità.
There you go. Okay, we're going to move on to the second song that you chose. Tell us about this.
Filippo Andreatta
The second song. So... the second song is a beautiful song and... well, the two songs I have taken it's just because they marked a little bit my last beginning of summers. Like, the one we listen[ed to] before was stuck in my head last summer more or less during this time [or] a little bit earlier. And this one got stuck in my head just one month ago or something.
Charles Adrian
So this is... What's the song called?
Filippo Andreatta
You Always Hurt The Ones You Love and it's basically beautiful because he says that he always takes... I don't know, for example, he always takes the best... the sweetest rose and he crushes it until all petals fall. And he makes all these pictures so basically there are these cheesy pictures just in order to get the point [at] which he apologises because tonight he is going to destroy her heart.
Charles Adrian
Oh!
Filippo Andreatta
Which is really nice.
Charles Adrian
Okay, so You Only... You Always Hurt The Ones You Love by Ryan Gosling.
Filippo Andreatta
Yup.
Music
[You Always Hurt The Ones You Love by Ryan Gosling]
Jingle
London Fields Radio... it's London Fields Radio.
Charles Adrian
It is, it's London Fields Radio. This is Page One. It's the 36th Second Hand Book Factory. It's Page One On The Run. I'm here in Polverigi in Italy with Philippa Andreatta and that was You Always Hurt The Ones You Love sung by Ryan Gosling...
Filippo Andreatta
Yup.
Charles Adrian
... from the film Blue Valentine. Filippo, now, you have to tell me about the book that you're going to one day give to me.
Filippo Andreatta
[laughs] Yeah, because I don't have here. I apologise for that.
Charles Adrian
That's fine.
Filippo and Charles Adrian
[laughter]
Filippo Andreatta
I'm not that well organised. Well. So the book is written by David Foster Wallace, which we already talked short about him.
Charles Adrian
Yeah.
Filippo Andreatta
He's an author in general I really suggest you to read because he can be really sharp. What I love about particularly this book but in general about all his books... I generally prefer his essays rather than the romances. But, anyway, what I love about him - this is what I think you could like - is the fact that you suddenly get into the thoughts of people. So it's basically, you're... actually you're reading what he has been writing to. But actually you're reading what is in your head. And it's really nice because it's... And it's... But it's not like a flow. You're not going to read the flow but you're really going to read the rational thinking that you're making probably before going to sleep or something like that. And also it's really, really funny. And it seems... It's beautiful because it has these specific words but suddenly they turn to be really complicated but then really funny in the same moment. This really is... I love this kind of writing [that is] so specific but still to be so fresh and light, so to say. And I've taken the very first page of the book that is titled Brief Interviews With Hideous Men. And it's kind of... I think I kind of like those in this moment because it reminds me a little bit [of] when you have to make this conversation for example after making a show. You meet someone and...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Aha, yes, okay. Yeah.
Filippo Andreatta
...you have to talk short [with them].
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] You have to talk... Yeah,
Filippo Andreatta
In Italian we call this kind of conversation, like, conversazioni fatiche. That is, kind of the [indistinct] put you to do that but you have to take them. You can't deny them so you have to say something. Anyway. And the title of this little book [sic] is A Radically Condensed History Of Postindustrial Life. And here is the story. Well... story... it's not really a story. Anyway. Okay.
When they were introduced, he made a witticism, hoping to be liked. She laughed very [sic] hard, hoping to be liked. Then each drove home alone, staring straight ahead, with the very same twist to their faces.
The man who'd introduced them didn't much like either of them, though he acted as if he did, anxious as he was to preserve good relations at all times. One never knew, after all, now did one now did one now did one.
Charles Adrian
[laughs]
Filippo Andreatta
That's the story.
Charles Adrian
That's a beautiful story. [laughs]
Filippo Andreatta
[laughs] It's really nice. Yeah, That's what I meant, because it's grasped perfectly in two sentences what this kind of general feeling you have for a specific situation. And it's incredible. What is scares me is that - we already said that but - how he could put into such a black and white clearness these kind of thoughts and situations and then deciding to take his life away. It's kind of scary in a way.
Charles Adrian
Yeah.
Filippo Andreatta
So... Yeah. But anyway.
Charles Adrian
This is the end of the podcast. Thank you so much.
Filippo Andreatta
Ah! It's done already?
Charles Adrian
It's done. It's done. I just have to say this will go up - so this has nothing to do with you, this last part - this podcast will go up on or around the 2nd of September. I want to tell my listeners that this is the last Page One to go up on Mixcloud, okay - my association with London Fields Radio is coming to an end - and from the beginning of October I'm going to be putting this out as an iTunes podcast. So you're still going to be able to find these via my homepage, which is charlesadrian.com - follow the links to Page One - but from the first week of October you'll also be able to subscribe to the podcast through iTunes.
Filippo Andreatta
Uh huh. That's good.
Charles Adrian
So. This is... To finish this little chapter of Page One, as it were, this is Greenday singing Wake Me Up When September Ends.
Music
[Wake Me Up When September Ends by Greenday]
[Initial transcription by https://otter.ai]