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Episode image is a detail from the cover of The Master And Margarita by Mikhail Bulgakov, published in 2000 by Penguin Classics; cover photograph by Matt Dawson.
This week, artist and writer Catherine Payton joins Charles Adrian for the 39th Second Hand Book Factory. Quietly, and under a full moon, they discuss the First World War and the construction of a realer Scotland for the film industry.
Other books by Angela Carter discussed on the podcast are The Passion Of New Eve (Page One 76), The Bloody Chamber (Page One 86, Page One 135 and Page One 141) and The Sadean Women (Page One 123 and, briefly, Page One 190).
The Master And Margarita by Mikhail Bulgakov is also discussed in Page One 170.
This episode has been edited to remove music that is no longer covered by licence for this podcast.
A transcript of this episode is below.
Episode released: 15th October, 2013.
Book listing:
Wise Children by Angela Carter
Regeneration by Pat Barker
The Master And Margarita by Mikhail Bulgakov (trans. Richard Pevear and Larissa Volokhonsky)
Links:
Episode transcript:
Charles Adrian
Okay, so...
Catherine Payton
It's definitely on.
Charles Adrian
Are you ready? It's on. Let's start.
Catherine Payton
Let's begin.
Charles Adrian
Hi guys, lean in because this first track starts really quietly.
Music
[In The Hall Of The Mountain King by Edvard Grieg/The Royal Philharmonic Orchestra]
Charles Adrian
So that's from an album called [laughing] Classical Spectacular.
Catherine Payton
[laughs]
Charles Adrian
That was The Hall Of The Mountain King by Edvard Grieg. Hello and welcome to Page One. I'm Charles Adrian. This is the 54th Page One and the 39th Second Hand Book Factory. Today I'm talking to Catherine Payton in her lovely Edinburgh flat - which, coincidentally, is in a parallel street from the flat where I stayed the very first time I came up to perform at the Fringe. So this is very nostalgic for me. Thank you for arranging that.
Catherine Payton
It's a pleasure.
Catherine and Charles Adrian
[laughter]
Charles Adrian
Now, the first thing I want to ask you is how do you describe yourself?
Catherine Payton
[musing] Hmm.
Charles Adrian
Or how would you... like, you know, it's up to you how you interpret that.
Catherine Payton
It's quite tricky. [laughing] I'm not sure. I am an artist and a writer. And in my imagination I'm an amazing dancer.
Charles Adrian
What kind of dancer?
Catherine Payton
Well, tap and... Mainly tap.
Charles Adrian
I... Yeah, that's wonderful.
Catherine Payton
Yeah. I would... Gene Kelly.
Charles Adrian
Right. Right.
Catherine Payton
[laughing] But I'm absolutely not.
Charles Adrian
Gene Kelly in your head.
Cathering Payton
Yeah.
Charles Adrian
Oh, that's lovely. Okay. I'll imagine that while we're doing this podcast.
Catherine Payton
Okay.
Charles Adrian
What's the book that you like that you've brought?
Catherine Payton
This... Well, it's Wise Children by Angela Carter, which...
Charles Adrian
Oh, I think I read that ages ago.
Catherine Payton
It's about twins. Nora and and Dora Chance, who live in London in their grandmother's big house. And it's just a wonderful magical story about theatre and film, and about being a twin. And it's just really rich. And there's a particular passage in it that I particularly like that has influenced quite a lot of what I've done since I read the book. So...
Charles Adrian
Oh really?
Catherine Payton
Yeah, there's a bit where they're in... they go to Hollywood in the, kind of, golden era of studio movies and they're in a production of Midsummer Night's Dream, and they build this amazing set in a massive, sort of, studio hangar. And it's a fake forest. And just the way that Angela Carter describes the forest, it so... it really resonates with me and I just love it.
Charles Adrian
Oh wonderful. Well, do you want to read the first page?
Catherine Payton
[quietly] Yes.
Charles Adrian
Is that alright? I know you'd probably like to read the description of the forest.
Catherine Payton
That's okay. [indistinct]
Catherine and Charles Adrian
[laughter]
Catherine Payton
Okay. So chapter one:
Question [sic]. Why is London like Budapest?
Answer [sic]. Because it is two cities divided by a river.
Good morning! Let me introduce myself. My name is Dora chance. Welcome to the wrong side of the tracks. Put it another way. If you're from the States, think of Manhattan. Then think of Brooklyn. See what I mean? Or, for a Parisian, it might be a question of rive gauche, rive droite. With London, it's the North and South divide. Me and Nora, that's my sister, we've always lived on the left-hand side, the side the tourists rarely see [sic], the bastard side of Old Father Thames.
Once upon a time, you could make a crude distinction, thus: the rich lived amidst pleasant verdure in the North speedily whisked to exclusive shopping by abundant public transport while the poor eked out miserable existences in the South in circumstances of urban deprivation condemned to wait for hours at windswept bus-stops while sounds of marital violence, breaking glass and drunken song echoed around and it was cold and dark and smelled of fish and chips. But you can't trust things to stay the same. There's been a diaspora of the affluent, they jumped into their diesel Saabs and dispersed throughout the city. You'd never believe the price of a house around here, these days. And what does the robin do then, poor thing?
Bugger the robin! What would have become of us, if Grandma hadn't left us this house? 49 Bard Road, Brixton, London, South West Two. Bless this house. If it wasn't for this house, Nora and I would be on the streets by now, hauling our worldlies up and down in plastic bags, sucking on the bottle for comfort like babes unweaned, bursting into song [sic] of joy when finally admitted to the night shelter and therefore chucked out again immediately [...]
Charles Adrian
Great. Although I take issue with her description of the south as the left bank.
Catherine Payton
Yeah, well...
Charles Adrian
That doesn't make any sense, does it? Or is she comparing it to Paris?
Catherine Payton
I don't know. She's just comparing it to divides in cities. I think.
Charles Adrian
I'm being too literal, perhaps.
Catherine Payton
Possibly. Yes.
Catherine and Charles Adrian
[laughter]
Charles Adrian
But wonderful. Oh, that's such a nice memory as well that you've brought back. I remember, probably towards the end when they get quite old, and one of them has sex with this ancient...
Catherine Payton
Their uncle.
Charles Adrian
Their uncle. That's right. Upstairs. And there's creaking and that was so much fun. Just the joy of these ancient, ancient people.
Catherine Payton
Yup. It's so irreverent. And I love that about Angela Carter's writing. I read one of her essays - or it was more of an article really - about Dorothy Wordsworth the other day. William's sister. And it was so irreverent. And I've never read anything like that about Dorothy before. And it's just like... it's... Yeah. It's just wonderful.
Charles Adrian
Yeah, I think that's... Yeah, you need to be irreverent, to a certain extent.
Catherine Payton
Definitely. But the bit in here where they're talking about the studio-built forest makes me think about Brigadoon. And that's come up in my research lately with Tom. That when Brigadoon was made, Arthur Freed, the producer of the film, came to Scotland in search of locations and he was shown around by Forsyth Hardy, who was running the film festival at the time. And he took him to lots of different Scottish locations and - the Scottish places to go - and Freet was like, “Okay, okay, yup, great,” and went back to America and said, “I've been to Scotland but I didn't find anywhere that looked like Scotland”. And so for Brigadoon they ended up building this absolutely vast set that was six hundred feet long or something. It was enormous. And they built Scotland in this hangar with lots of heather and imported cows and sheep and livestock. And apparently it looked so real that birds would fly in to the hangar and fly directly into the backdrop [laughing] because it was...
Charles Adrian
So some publicist said.
Catherine Payton
Yeah, yeah. [laughs]
Charles Adrian
[laughing] That sounds nice. No but that's nice. I like that. Yes.
Catherine Payton
It's a good story. So that makes me think of Wise Children. Yeah.
Charles Adrian
Wonderful. Now, I should explain that I've let you choose all the music today. I was just too lazy. And you sent me a wonderful selection of things, which I was listening to yesterday. So the first one we've played - In The Hall Of The Mountain King - I should say that that was... I think that's the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra that I chose. The second one is lovely. I've never come across this before but it reminds me of something that Lucy Pawlak sent me that I included on her Page One, which was about a dog. And it's also kind of folky. That's probably where the comparison ends. But this is called Ballad Of The Talking Dog and it's wonderful. This is by Mary Hampton. I love this.
Catherine Payton
Yeah, it's lovely.
Music
[Ballad Of The Talking Dog by Mary Hampton]
Charles Adrian
So that's Mary Hampton with Ballad Of The Talking Dog, which we know nothing about apparently.
Catherine Payton
Nothing. But I just love that it's about a talking dog and... yeah...
Catherine and Charles Adrian
[laughter]
Charles Adrian
And it sounds wonderful.
Catherine Payton
It's lovely. With the... We were saying whilst we were listening to it that it sounds like they recorded it in the kitchen.
Charles Adrian
[affirmative] Mmm. Could be, couldn't it.
Catherine Payton
Yeah, yeah, I think so.
Charles Adrian
And I think that first... when the... I was saying when the rhythm first comes... when the beat first comes in, I think it sounds like books falling over, which is totally appropriate!
Catherine Payton
[laughs]
Charles Adrian
[sound of paper crackling] Now, I have my book for you, which is wrapped up in this paper wrapping...
Catherine Payton
Gosh! It's very exciting.
Charles Adrian
... because I went to that amazing second hand bookshop.
Catherine Payton
Which one?
Charles Adrian
The one beside Blackwell's on... just past North Bridge.
Catherine Payton
Oh yes.
Charles Adrian
[whispers] I love it in there.
Catherine Payton
Yes. [indistinct]
Charles Adrian
It's really great. And you do... You go in and the guy says, “Can I help you?” And you say... in my case I said, “Yes, I'm looking for something esoteric maybe on second lives,” [laughing] because I thought that might be something that you would like.
Catherine Payton
[laughs]
Charles Adrian
I didn't find anything.
Catherine Payton
Did he have any recommendations?
Charles Adrian
He was like, “Yeah, look over there”. And then somebody else came in and asked for something really specific - I can't remember what it was even - and he was just like, “Yup, top corner, up [on] the left”. And I love those kinds of shops. [indistinct]
Catherine Payton
Yeah. Edinburgh's full of them as well.
Charles Adrian
So what I... but what I did find for you - because I gave up on the esoteric. There were lots of books about Egypt and Buddhism, which to me is not very esoteric at all. That's not what I was looking for. But then I went to the novel section and I bought you Regeneration by Pat Barker. Have you ever read that?
Catherine Payton
I've never even heard of it.
Charles Adrian
Oh, well you should definitely read this. This is the first book in a trilogy. It's called the Regeneration Trilogy. And I think... I read them out of order and I think I should go back and reread them [because]... They work as separate books but there is some kind of through line, I think. And they're set during the First World War. And this book is set in Craiglockhart in Scotland - it's a psychiatric hospital - where Siegfried Sassoon was sent when he started to protest against the war. And instead of being court-martialed, I think he was... somebody had a word with somebody and he was declared insane and sent to Craiglockhart. So a lot of the book is really - and a lot of the trilogy - is about what war does to people and what you can do about it. The third book, for example, it's called The Eye In The Door and it's about a conscientious objector. And the second book I don't remember very well. But this book is really about the effect that war has on people's psyches and their souls to a certain extent and... I was very excited by it and... When I was about fifteen we studied war poetry at school - the First World War poetry, I suppose - and it was the first poetry that really meant something to me. I really thought “Yeah, no, I...” This whole dilemma of war. And I became a pacifist very firmly and I remember wearing a piece poppy on Remembrance Day and being told off for it because it was a very martial school.
Catherine Payton
Told off for it?
Charles Adrian
Not really told off but I was told... my house master said that I shouldn't let the headmaster see me wearing it.
Catherine Payton
Oh dear.
Charles Adrian
We were very proud of our Victoria Crosses. We had more Victoria Crosses than any other school except for Eton which was more than twice our size. That was the phrase that was used every year on Remembrance Day. And it it disgusted me because I felt like we were celebrating something non-existant. We were celebrating this mythical ‘end of war’, or something, or the...
sound
[telephone ringing]
Catherine Payton
Hang on. [speaking into telephone] Hello? [puts telephone down] My sister.
Catherine and Charles Adrian
[laughter]
Charles Adrian
So...
Catherine Payton
Where were we?
Charles Adrian
A sneaky edit later... So I don't think I was really going anywhere with that thought. But I think what I realised at the time or what I started to think at the time, which I still feel, is that the stories that come out of the First World War I think are very revealing about humanity in general. I don't think it's a specific thing about a particular time. I think war is something that we do regularly and we do it badly and people are destroyed by it in so many different ways. And they're destroyed whether they go or they don't go. And I remember that's what upset me, I think, so much is that there's no alternative. Once war happens in your neighbourhood you cannot be neutral. Because, you know, even to declare yourself neutral is to declare yourself in opposition to whatever it is that's going on and therefore to be a problem. And this is one of the things that the book deals with. And also, you know... So, what would be called, I suppose, unorthodox attitudes to war but also disordered sexuality, which goes throughout the whole trilogy as well. And that, obviously, I find interesting. And... Anyway, I think it's a good book. I think it's a...
Catherine Payton
It sounds like a good book.
Charles Adrian
I think it's going to be one you enjoy. And just, you know, serendipitously it has a wonderful first page.
Catherine Payton
Please do read me the first page.
Charles Adrian
So:
One
FINISHED WITH THE WAR
A Soldier's Declaration.
I am making this statement as an act of wilful defiance of military authority, because I believe the war is being deliberately prolonged by those who have the power to end it.
I am a soldier, convinced that I am acting on behalf of soldiers. I believe that this war, upon which I entered as a war of defence and liberation, has now become a war of aggression and conquest. I believe that the purposes for which I and my fellow soldiers entered upon this war should have been so clearly stated as to have made it impossible to change them, and that, had this been done, the objects which actuated us would now be attainable by negotiation.
I have seen and endured the suffering of the troops, and I can no longer be a party to prolong these sufferings for ends which I believe to be evil and unjust.
I am not protesting against the conduct of the war, but against the political errors and insincerities for which the fighting men are being sacrificed.
On behalf of those who are suffering now I make this protest against the deception which is being practised on them; also I believe that I may help to destroy the callous complacence with which the majority of those at home regard the continuance of agonies which they do not share, and which they have not sufficient imagination to realize.
S. Sassoon
July 1917
Bryce waited for Rivers to finish reading before he spoke again. ‘The “S” stands for “Siegfried”. Apparently, he thought that was better left out.’
There you go.
Catherine Payton
Thank you.
Charles Adrian
I've come across a few first pages that make me more excited. I think that's a wonderful page.
Catherine Payton
That is a wonderful page. Thank you so much. I'll look forward to that.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] And now your book for me. You can look at that book later. Put it down. Put it down.
Catherine Payton
Okay.
Catherine and Charles Adrian
[laughter]
Catherine Payton
So I was going to give you... I couldn't decide what to give you and I decided it on the way home. It was going to be Wise Children and then it was going to be The Lacuna by Barbara Kingsolver. But now, because I've been to a talk by Marina Warner all about witches this evening, I'm going to give you The Master And Margarita.
Charles Adrian
Oh cool!
Catherine Payton
Have you read it?
Charles Adrian
I have but a while ago and I need to reread it.
Catherine Payton
You do now that I'm giving it to you.
Charles Adrian
Absolutely.
Catherine and Charles Adrian
[laughter]
Charles Adrian
This is timely.
Catherine Payton
It is. Well, yeah. Particularly because of what we've been reading about the Edinburgh witch trials and executions recently as well, which is very interesting. And we found a very small plaque that remembers hundreds of women - and men, I suppose - who were killed over a hundred, two hundred year period. And then we went to a fascinating talk about witches in, kind of, folklore this evening, which made me remember this. I totally love this book and I love how it slips in and out of reality. And there's a talking cat. And is there a talking dog? He's written another book, Bulgakov, about a talking dog. Talking animals is a theme. [laughs]
Charles Adrian
It's great. And I love the... in the cover you have these two shadow puppets. One is the talking cat and then the other is this head being removed from a man. I think that's great.
Catherine Payton
Yes, it's a good cover.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] It's a really good image for the book.
Catherine Payton
[affirmative] Mmm.
Charles Adrian
Read me the first page.
Catherine Payton
CHAPTER I
Never Talk With Strangers
At the hour of the hot spring sunset two citizens appeared at the Patriarch's Pond [sic]. One of them, approximately forty years old, dressed in a grey summer suit, was short, dark-haired, plump, bald, and carried his respectable fedora hat in his hand. His neatly shaven face was adorned with black horn-rimmed glasses of a supernatural size. The other, a broad-shouldered young man with tousled reddish hair, his checkered cap cocked back on his head, was wearing a cowboy shirt, wrinkled white trousers and black sneakers.
The first was none other than Mikhail Alexandrovich Berlioz, editor of a fat literary journal and chairman of the board of one of the major Moscow literary associations, called Massolit for short, and his young companion was the poet Ivan Nikolaevich [slowly] Ponyrev [...]
My pronunciation may be a little off.
Catherine and Charles Adrian
[laughter]
Charles Adrian
I couldn't possibly correct you.
Catherine Payton
... who wrote under the pseudonym of Homeless.
Once in the shade of the barely greening lindens, the writers dashed first thing to a brightly painted stand with the sign: ‘Beer and Soft Drinks.’
Ah, yes, note must be made of the first oddity of this dreadful May evening. There was not a single person to be seen, not only by the stand, but also along the whole walk parallel to Malaya Bronnaya Street. At that hour when it seemed no longer possible to breathe, when the sun, having scorched Moscow, was collapsing in a dry haze somewhere beyond Sadovoye Ring, no one came under the lindens, no one sat on a bench, the walk was empty.
‘Give us seltzer,’ Berlioz asked.
‘There is no seltzer,’ the woman in the stand said, and for some reason became offended.
‘Is there beer?’ Homeless inquired in a rasping voice.
‘Beer'll be delivered towards evening,’ the woman replied.
‘Then what is there?’ said [sic] Berlioz.
‘Apricot soda, only warm,’ said the woman.
‘Well, let's have it, let's have it!...’
The soda produced an abundance of yellow foam, and the air began [...]
Charles Adrian
Great. Thank you very much. I like that “only warm”.
Catherine Payton
“Only warm!”
Charles Adrian
Oh, that's lovely. I'm going to enjoy rereading that. Thank you very much. And I have just finished reading the book that I have been reading up till now. So it's perfect. Literally today I've come to the end of...
Catherine Payton
[speaking over] Oh excellent! What was that book?
Charles Adrian
That was Clea [/klɪə/] by Lawrence Durrell.
Catherine Payton
Ah yes.
Charles Adrian
Or Clea [/kleɪə/], or... I don't know how it's pronounced.
Catherine Payton
Clea [/klɪə/]. My friend's mum wants to call her Clea. Possibly after that book I think. But her dad threatened to make her middle name Perspex if [laughing] she went ahead with it.
Charles Adrian
Well, and on that note I think we have to bring this to an end. But this has been wonderful, Catherine.
Catherine Payton
Thank you.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Thank you very much. The last track is a track that I also love. This is... I'm going to play the David Bowie track Moonage Daydream from The Rise And Fall Of Ziggy Stardust. Which I think it's the only album I own by David Bowie but I love it. There was a period where I listened to that a lot.
Catherine Payton
Also, I sent you that track with a photograph of David Bowie lying... He's lying back in bed. I think he's got a cigarette in his hand. And he's looking out of the corner of his eye at the camera. And it was taken the morning after the moon landing. And I just think that's...
Charles Adrian
Amazing, no?
Catherine Payton
That's magic in itself, when the whole world is changed that morning and the moon maybe loses something that morning as well.
Charles Adrian
Maybe so. It's full tonight, I think.
Catherine Payton
Yeah. Yeah.
Charles Adrian
We'll think about that. We'll be thinking about that while we listen to this.
Catherine Payton
Okay.
Charles Adrian
Thank you.
Catherine Payton
Thank you.
[Initial transcription by https://otter.ai]