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(This episode is marked as explicit because of strong language.)

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Season 2 Episodes

Episode image is a detail from the cover of The Sparrow by Mary Doria Russell, published in 1997 by Black Swan; cover photographs by A. Morton/Science Photo Library & Images Colour Library.

Episode image is a detail from the cover of The Sparrow by Mary Doria Russell, published in 1997 by Black Swan; cover photographs by A. Morton/Science Photo Library & Images Colour Library.

Natalie ‘shouty’ Clarke joins Charles Adrian for a fractionally longer-than-normal and marginally explicit 44th Second Hand Book Factory in the café at the front of the Royal Festival Hall in London. They talk about the potential downsides of time-travel, identification with plotlines and Jesuits in space. Pedants' corner: for “secret society” towards the end of the episode, please substitute “secretive society”; Charles Adrian also realises that the phrase “explicit edit” would be a more colloquial expression to describe the Wretch 32 track than “explicit edition”.

The Time-Traveler's Wife by Audrey Niffenegger is also discussed in Page One 138.

The Sparrow by Mary Doria Russell is also discussed in Page One 172.

This episode has been edited to remove music that is no longer covered by licence for this podcast.

A transcript of this episode is below.

Episode released: 7th January, 2014.

Book listing:

The Time-Traveler's Wife by Audrey Niffenegger

The Phantom Tollbooth by Norton Juster

The Sparrow by Mary Doria Russell

Links:

Page One 138

Page One 172

Charles Adrian

Episode transcript:

Charles Adrian
Hello and welcome to the first Page One of 2014. This is the 64th Page One. It's the 44th Second Hand Book Factory. My guest today is Natalie Clark. Hello Natalie.

Natalie Clarke
Hello!

Charles Adrian
We're sitting in the... at the front of the Royal Festival Hall, which we thought would be a quiet place to sit.

Natalie Clarke
And it is not quiet.

Charles Adrian
Not the quietest place to sit. But we're going to try and shout over the general hubbub. There's also a graduation happening in the main space, which a friend of mine is involved with, which is quite exciting, and they will presumably. pour out at some point and start being jubi... jubilant? Is that the right word?

Natalie Clarke
Yeah. Maybe they'll chuck their mortar boards into the air.

Charles Adrian
Maybe they will. So I don't know how long this podcast recording is going to go on for but... Anyway, I'm Charles Adrian – I haven't said that – and I'm going to start with Natalie's first choice of music. This is – oh, and I should say “Warning!” because this is the explicit edition, okay, so all children please switch off now. This is Traktor by Wretch 32 and the reason I say “warning” is because he is apparently going to ride this motherfucking beat like a tractor.

Natalie Clarke
Like a tractor. Like a motherfucking tractor.

Charles Adrian
Like a mother... sorry, yes. Here it is: Traktor, the explicit edition.

Music
[Traktor (Explicit Edit) by Wretch 32

Charles Adrian
So that was Traktor by Wretch 32. Now, Natalie, how do you describe yourself?

Natalie Clarke
How would I describe myself? What a great question. I am a performance maker. I also work as a producer and I'm currently a therapist in training – psychotherapist.

Charles Adrian
Wow. Beautiful how far into your training have you got?

Natalie Clarke
I'm just at the beginning of the foundation year. So I'm a very, very baby, baby therapist that wouldn't be allowed to touch a real person's brain.

Natalie and Charles Adrian
[laughter]

Natalie Clarke
We just have to practice on each other in case we do something really outside of the box and make each other cry or something.

Charles Adrian
Oh, but that's allowed, though, isn't it? I mean, I...

Natalie Clarke
Yeah. I think we're allowed to... I think we're allowed to make mistakes and say weird stuff.

Charles Adrian
Yeah. You're allowed to make people cry.

Natalie Clarke
Yeah. I mean, I try not to. I'm really scared about doing that. But as part of the course we have to be in ‘group’ as well... like, in a kind of... with a cohort... group therapy. And I have... I yelled at my group about a couple of weeks ago and I thought, “Oh, no, it's fine. Okay, we're now getting to that point where we're going to start having weird emotions at each other. Okay, we've achieved that level.” So that's me. [laughs]

Charles Adrian
[laughs] Congratulations. Congratulations.

Natalie Clarke
Thank you.

Charles Adrian
So Natalie Clark. ‘Shouty’ I think I will put on the podcast description.

Natalie Clarke
In brackets. Yeah. Shouting.

Charles Adrian
Shouty Clarke.

Natalie Clarke
[laughs]

Charles Adrian
And I hasten [to note that] we don't know each other very well yet. So this is a get-to-know-you period for both of us, I think which is nice. I always enjoy that. And I realised... Well, listeners we had a realisation as... We decided to meet outside the National Film Theatre without remembering that we've only met once before and might not remember what each other looks like. And we had that classic moment of looking into each other's eyes and both of us going: “Is it...?”

Natalie Clarke
[speaking over] Going: “Is it you? Is it you?”

Charles Adrian
And I'm quite pleased you weren't just waiting for somebody from match.com to come because it might have been an awkward thing to...

Natalie Clarke
[speaking over] Really awkward.

Charles Adrian
... wriggle out of.

Natalie Clarke
Yeah. “Sorry? What?” You know. “What do you mean podcast? Get away from me!” No.

Charles Adrian
[laughs] Tell me about the book that you like.

Natalie Clarke
Okay so the book that I like. I was actually a little bit embarrassed about bringing this one and I thought, “Oh I should think of something really cool”. I want... I definitely want to come across as – to your listeners – as incredibly cool. But then I thought...

Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Mmm hmm. They have high standards.

Natalie Clarke
Yeah, that's the thing. And then I thought, “Well, but maybe I'm not”. So I just should say what the book in fact is, which is The Time Traveler's Wife by Audrey Niffenegger, if I can pronounce the name correctly.

Charles Adrian
Wow. I didn't know her name. That's amazing. That's a great name.

Natalie Clarke
Yeah, she's got a great name. And I have loved this book... I got it for the first time because years and years ago when I first finished school I worked at a little pizza restaurant called Java And Jazz and they also had a book club. And there was basically one of the... a copy of that was left over after one of the book clubs and so the owner said, “Oh, does anyone want this book?” And so I went, [in bored voice] “Oh, yeah. All right, I'll have it.” And and then I absolutely fell in love with it in reading it. Partly because I had that attraction to it which is a bit like... you know sometimes you'll hear a song and you'll go, “Oh, I think this song was actually written about me”? In reading that book I felt like, “Oh! She wrote this book about me. Wow, how did she know?” You know? Which is a beautiful feeling even if it is probably fairly delusional because I don't think that she did write it about me. But there's something basically just about the relationship between Clare and Henry, who are the main protagonists of the story, that I really identify with and that I feel like tells the story of me and my boyfriend and that it's like what happened to us. And so in reading it it feels really kind of cathartic. And also it's beautifully heartbreaking at the end. I still sometimes think about the last page and can well up. I mean, I really... I remember sobbing intensely at the end so... and I kind of love things to do that to me. So that's the book.

Charles Adrian
Oh beautiful. Let's hear the first page then.

Natalie Clarke
[speaking over] Yes. First page. Okay. I'll just get it up. Okay. So:

FIRST DATE, ONE


Saturday, October 26, 1991 (Henry is 28, Clare is 20)

CLARE: The library is cool and smells like carpet cleaner, although all I can see is marble. I sign the Visitors' Log: Clare Abshire, 11:15 10-26-91 Special Collections. I have never been in the Newberry Library before and now that I've gotten past the dark, foreboding entrance I am excited. I have a sort of Christmas-morning sense of the library as a big box full of beautiful books. The elevator is dimly lit, almost silent. I stop on the third floor and fill out an application for a Reader's Card, then I go upstairs to Special Collections. My boot heels rap the wooden floor. The room is quiet and crowded, full of solid, heavy tables piled with books and surrounded by readers. Chicago autumn morning light shines through the tall windows. I approach the desk and collect a stack of call slips. I'm writing a paper for an art history class. My research topic is the Kelmscott Press Chaucer. I look up the book itself and fill out a call slip for it. But I also want to read about papermaking at Kelmscott. The catalog is confusing. [...] As I explain to the woman what I'm trying to find, she glances over my shoulder at someone passing behind me. “Perhaps Mr. Detamble can help you,” she says. I turn, prepared to start explaining again, and find myself face to face with Henry.
I am speechless. Here is Henry, calm, clothed, younger than I have ever seen him. Henry is working at the Newberry Library, standing in front of me, in the present. Here and now. I am jubilant. Henry is looking at me patiently, uncertain but polite.
“Is there something I can help you with?” he asks.
“Henry!” I can barely refrain from throwing my arms around him. It is obvious that he has never seen me before in his life.
“Have we met? I'm sorry, I don't...” Henry is glancing around us, worrying that readers, co-workers are noticing us, searching his memory and realizing that some future self of his has met this radiantly happy girl standing in front of him. The last time I saw him he was sucking my toes in the Meadow.

Charles Adrian
Amazing.

Natalie Clarke
Amazing.

Charles Adrian
Wow. I love the build-up of that page because it starts off fairly – if I may say so – dull.

Natalie Clarke
Yeah.

Charles Adrian
And suddenly you get that “there he is calm and clothed” and you think, “Ooo, something's going on”.

Natalie Clarke
Exactly. And the sucking of toes is a brilliant place to leave it. And I think it throws you in automatically into this kind of jarring idea of shifting times. That Clare can know Henry and Henry can not know Clare even though they've met. And as you kind of... This story of time travel, essentially. And what I kind of love that she does with it – because I think a lot of the time... I mean, I don't know how often you think about what superpowers you'd like. It's something I occupy myself with fairly often.

Charles Adrian
[speaking over] It's a question that gets asked occasionally, yes.

Natalie Clarke
[speaking over] A lot. And I think that I've often been attracted to the idea of time travel. Particularly because, you know, I feel like I'm quite obsessed by the past so I'd love to be able to go back and change things or not change things or intervene. Selfishly with my own history but probably I should do it also for the rest of the world – you know, step in, stop Hitler, so on. But... and then in this book she kind of takes this thing that I think... well, I have this idea would be magical and wonderful and I can travel through time, and makes it absolutely awful for him because of his lack of control over it and that he always ends up naked, lost, vulnerable when it happens. And suddenly you think, “Oh, actually, it would be totally debilitating”. And it's just a very interesting premise.

Charles Adrian
It's so fascinating. Oh, wonderful. Thank you very much.

Natalie Clarke
No, you're welcome.

Charles Adrian
I am introduced to a new world there, I think. Now, I'm going to play the second track that you suggested, which is totally different from the first. It's lovely. This is much calmer and... This is by Lizzie West and it's Chariot's Rise.

Music
[Chariot's Rise by Lizzie West]

Charles Adrian
So that was Chariot's Rise by Lizzie West. How lovely! How gentle.

Natalie Clarke
I know.

Charles Adrian
Now, my book for you...

Natalie Clarke
Oh, how exciting.

Charles Adrian
I'm excited about this. Now, I don't know... I didn't know really anything about you except what Vera had told me. Vera's our mutual contact.

Natalie Clarke
[speaking over] Better have been nice stuff.

Charles Adrian
Lovely stuff! And I saw her last week and I said, “Okay, you have to tell me all about Natalie Clarke”. And she gave me much too much information and I forgot all of it. So luckily, when you... I mean, I remember some things. But when you emailed me the other day and I had thought I'd emailed you and [it] turned out I hadn't and you said, “Oh, I often have these moments where I think I've spoken to someone but it was a dream”. And I thought, “Oh, I know!” What I want to give you is... it's The Phantom Tollbooth by Norton Juster. It's a children's book...

Natalie Clarke
Brilliant.

Charles Adrian
... which I read as a child. And I had to reread it now before giving it to you because I couldn't bear to give it to you without remembering what was inside it.

Natalie Clarke
[speaking over] Making it fresh.

Charles Adrian
Yes. And rather like with your book, I think, I very much identified with Milo – who's the main character in this book – in the sense that I was very easily bored. I mean, I was good at entertaining myself but I could get bored of things. And he discovers a whole world of word games and numbers and it reignites his excitement with the world in general.

Natalie Clarke
Okay. How beautiful.

Charles Adrian
And I think it's a lovely book. It's from 1961 but I think it's still totally readable today. And I want to... I've done a lot of cheating recently and I want to continue to cheat. I'm going to read the whole of the first chapter.

Natalie Clarke
Oh lovely.

Charles Adrian
Because the first page is just... it's...

Natalie Clarke
It's not enough.

Charles Adrian
It's not enough. It's not enough. Okay, so here we go:

1. Milo

There was once a boy named Milo who didn't know what to do with himself—not just sometimes, but always.
When he was in school he longed to be out, and when he was out he longed to be in. On the way he thought about coming home, and coming home he thought about going. Wherever he was he wished he were somewhere else, and when he got there he wondered why he'd bothered. Nothing really interested him—least of all the things that should have.
“It seems to me that almost everything is a waste of time,” he remarked one day as he walked dejectedly home from school. “I can't see the point in learning to solve useless problems, or subtracting turnips from turnips, or knowing where Ethiopia is or how to spell February.” And, since no one bothered to explain otherwise, he regarded the process of seeking knowledge as the greatest waste of time of all.
As he and his unhappy thoughts hurried along (for while he was never anxious to be where he was going, he liked to get there as quickly as possible) it seemed a great wonder that the world, which was so large, could sometimes feel so small and empty.
“And worst of all,” he continued sadly, “there's nothing for me to do, nowhere I'd care to go, and hardly anything worth seeing.” He punctuated this last thought with such a deep sigh that a house sparrow singing nearby stopped and rushed home to be with his family.
Without stopping or looking up, he rushed past the buildings and busy shops that lined the street and in a few minutes reached home—dashed through the hall—hopped into the lift—two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, and off again—opened the door of the flat—rushed into his room—flopped dejectedly into a chair, and grumbled softly, “Another long afternoon.”
He looked glumly at all the things he owned. The books that were too much trouble to read, the tools he'd never learned to use, the small electric car he hadn't driven for months—or was it years—and the hundreds of other games and toys, and bats and balls, and bits and pieces scattered around him. And then, on the far side of the room, he noticed something he had certainly never seen before.
Who could possibly have left such an enormous package and such a strange one? For, while it was not quite square, it was definitely not round, and for its size it was larger than almost any other big package of smaller dimension that he'd ever seen.
Attached to one side was a bright-blue envelope which said simply: “FOR MILO, WHO HAS PLENTY OF TIME.”
Of course, if you've ever received a surprise package, you can imagine how puzzled and excited Milo was; and if you've never received one, pay close attention, because someday you might.
“I don't think it's my birthday,” he puzzled, “and Christmas must be months away, and I haven't been outstandingly good, or even good at all.” (He had to admit this even to himself.) “Probably I won't like it anyway, but since I don't know where it came from, I can't possibly send it back.” He thought about it for quite a while and then opened the envelope, but just to be polite.
“ONE GENUINE TURNPIKE TOLLBOOTH,” it stated—and then it went on:
“EASILY ASSEMBLED AT HOME, AND FOR USE BY THOSE WHO HAVE NEVER TRAVELED IN LANDS BEYOND.”
“Beyond what?” thought Milo as he continued to read.
“THIS PACKAGE CONTAINS THE FOLLOWING ITEMS:
“One (1) genuine turnpike tollbooth to be erected according to directions.
“Three (3) precautionary signs to be used in [a] precautionary fashion.
“Assorted coins for use in paying tolls.
“One (1) map, up to date and carefully drawn by master cartographers, depicting natural and man-made features.
“One (1) book of rules and traffic regulations, which may not be bent or broken.”
And in smaller letters at the bottom it concluded:
“RESULTS ARE NOT GUARANTEED, BUT IF NOT PERFECTLY SATISFIED, YOUR WASTED TIME WILL BE REFUNDED.”
Following the instructions, which told him to cut here, lift there, and fold back all around, he soon had the tollbooth unpacked and set up on its stand. He fitted the windows in place and attached the roof, which extended out on both sides, and fastened on the coin box. It was very much like the tollbooths he'd seen on family trips, except of course it was much smaller and purple.
“What a strange present,” he thought to himself.
“The least they could have done was to send a motorway with it, for it's terribly impractical without one.” But since, at the time there was nothing else he wanted to play with, he set up the three signs,
SLOW DOWN APPROACHING TOLLBOTH
PLEASE HAVE YOUR FARE READY
HAVE YOUR DESTINATION IN MIND
and slowly unfolded the map.
As the announcement stated, it was a beautiful map, in many colours, showing principal roads, rivers and seas, towns and cities, mountains and valleys, intersections and detours, and sites of outstanding interest both beautiful and historic.
The only trouble was that Milo had never heard of any of the places it indicated, and even the names sounded most peculiar.
“I don't think there really is such a country,” he concluded after studying it carefully. “Well, it doesn't matter anyway.” And he closed his eyes and poked a finger at the map.
“Dictionopolis,” read Milo slowly when he saw what his finger had chosen. “Oh, well, I might as well go there as anywhere.”
He walked across the room and dusted the car carefully. Then, taking the map and rule book with him, he hopped in and, for lack of anything better to do, drove slowly up to the tollbooth. As he deposited his coin and rolled past he remarked wistfully, “I do hope this is an interesting game, otherwise the afternoon will be so terribly dull.”

Rest assured it is not terribly dull.

Natalie Clarke
No. Thank you so much. What a lovely book. And I like the sound of Milo.

Charles Adrian
He's lovely.

Natalie Clarke
He does sound quite lovely.

Charles Adrian
And he makes some nice friends. So. We should hurry on because I've read quite a lot. What is your book for me?

Natalie Clarke
Okay, well, it's really interesting that you picked something about another world – some Jungian unconscious is going on here – because mine is called...

Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Oh my. It's the Oversoul, which is looking after us.

Natalie Clarke
So. It's called The Sparrow and it is basically about Jesuits in space.

Charles Adrian
Oh ho ho ho!

Natalie Clarke
Which sounds like maybe you don't want to read that..

Charles Adrian
No, it sounds fabulous.

Natalie Clarke
... but you do want to read it.

Charles Adrian
It's exactly the kind of thing I want to read. It combines two of my favourite things.

Natalie Clarke
Really? Wonderful.

Natalie Clarke
Secret religious societies and space. Amazing.

Natalie Clarke
And space. And... So it's basically about humanity kind of makes contact with another planet, which has beautiful... what we hear from them is beautiful, kind of, unearthly singing. And the Jesuits are the first to get it together enough to, kind of, send a rocket out there. But something pretty terrible happens and it's kind of about the aftermath and why that happens. But it's a wonderful meditation on: how do we connect. Because as, kind of, things go on you, kind of, understand, sort of, the problems which could be used as a metaphor for any kind of connection but when you're dealing with an alien the simplest misunderstandings can lead to very serious consequences. And it's just wonderful.

Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Wonderful. Read me the first page.

Natalie Clarke
The first page. Okay. So:

1

ROME: DECEMBER 2059


On December 7, 2059, Emilio Sandoz was released from the isolation ward of Salvator Mundi Hospital in the middle of the night and transported in a bread van to the Jesuit Residence at Number 5 Borgo Santo Spirito, a few minutes' walk across St Peter's Square from the Vatican. The next day, ignoring shouted questions and howls of journalistic outrage as he read, a Jesuit spokesman issued a short statement to the frustrated and angry media mob that had gathered outside Number 5's massive front door.
‘To the best of our knowledge, Father Emilio Sandoz is the sole survivor of the Jesuit mission to Rakhat. Once again, we extend our thanks to the U.N., to the Contact Consortium and to the Asteroid Mining Division of Ohbayashi Corporation for making the return of Father Sandoz possible. We have no additional information regarding the fate of the Contact Consortium's crew members; they are in our prayers. Father Sandoz is too ill to question at this time and his recovery is expected to take months. Until then, there can be no further comment on the Jesuit mission or on the Contact Consortium's allegation [sic] regarding Father Sandoz's conduct on Rakhat.’

Charles Adrian
Wow. That's a beautiful first page I'm intrigued.

Natalie Clarke
And I'm also very sorry that it's so beaten up but it's a well-loved book.

Charles Adrian
Oh, but no, that makes it all the more valuable for me. I love beat up books. That's beautiful. And it's a little bit water damaged, which... Ah, no, these things make me happy.

Natalie Clarke
Really? I'm a terrible one for reading books in the bath...

Charles Adrian
Oh great!

Natalie Clarke
... which means that then they get dipped in the bath.

Charles Adrian
[laughs] Of course they do. My mother always liked library books – hardback library books – because they came covered in plastic.

Natalie Clarke
Ah. That's wise, yes.

Charles Adrian
And she may still like them – I don't know – but she has a Kindle now. I'm not sure if she reads the Kindle in the bath.

Natalie Clarke
Yeah, that could... Is that not dangerous?

Charles Adrian
It could be dangerous. Let's finish this podcast there. This has been wonderful. Thank you so much, Natalie...

Natalie Clarke
Oh no, thank you for having me.

Charles Adrian
... and I look forward to getting to know you better as time goes on.

Natalie Clarke
Ah! What a nice thing to say.

Charles Adrian
The last track that you chose is a wonderful track. I mean, the beginning is amazing. Just, like, the first couple of bars. It's... I think I'm right in saying it's the original. Is that right?

Natalie Clarke
Yes, it is the original. Yes.

Charles Adrian
So this is Heartbeats by The Knife which was later covered by...

Natalie Clarke
Jose Gonzalez?

Charles Adrian
I think that's right, isn't it?

Natalie Clarke
Yeah.

Charles Adrian
It's a slightly watered down version.

Natalie Clarke
Oh s... Yeah.

Charles Adrian
This is lovely. And so we're going to finish our 44th Second Hand Book Factory with Heartbeats by The Knife. Thank you so much.

Natalie Clarke
Thank you.

Music
[Heartbeats by The Knife]

[Initial transcription by https://otter.ai]