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Episode image is a detail from the cover of Against Interpretation and Other Essays by Susan Sontag, published in 2009 by Penguin Classics; cover photograph © Bob Peterson/Time Life Pictures/Getty Images.
Get ready for the beautiful sound of some German language: Julia*n Meding starts this 49th Second Hand Book Factory by introducing Charles Adrian to the science of strolling (Spaziergangswissenschaft). They also talk about the politics of threesomes and Julia*n brings both great music and deathless critical thinking.
Apologies for the electronic intrusions - Julia*n wasn't asked to turn off her phone, which is Charles Adrian's fault.
Note: Charles Adrian uses he/him pronouns for Julia*n, which may or may not have been correct.
In an odd coincidence, Hans Ulrich Obrist (in conversation with Lucius Burkhardt in Julian’s first book choice) and Adam Thirlwell (author of Charles Adrian’s book choice) are in conversation in AnOther Magazine in this article from 2023.
Against Interpretation by Susan Sontag is also discussed in Page One 174.
This episode has been edited to remove music that is no longer covered by licence for this podcast.
This episode features a jingle written for the podcast by the band Friends Of Friends.
A transcript of this episode is below.
Episode released: 25th February, 2014.
Book listing:
Strollology als Nebenfach – Ein Gespräch mit Hans Ulrich Obrist from Warum Ist Landschaft Schön? by Lucius Burckhardt
Politics by Adam Thirlwell
Against Interpretation from Against Interpretation and Other Essays by Susan Sontag
Links:
On Storytelling: Adam Thirlwell and Hans Ulrich Obrist in Conversation in AnOther Magazine
Episode transcript:
Charles Adrian
Shall we start?
Julia*n Meding
Okay.
Charles Adrian
Hello everyone. This is the 70th Page One, it's the 49th Second Hand Book Factory, I'm Charles Adrian, and my guest this week in Graz, Austria, is Julia*n Meding.
Jingle
You're listening to Page One, the book podcast.
Charles Adrian
Hi Julia*n.
Julia*n Meding
Hi Adrian.
Charles Adrian
So we should explain straight away that Julia*n is not feeling completely well. I burst in on you about twenty minutes ago without any warning.
Julia*n Meding
Yeah but I told you to come over and I wasn't... Like, I have a strong headache and I can't... speak very... focused or something. So...
Charles Adrian
We will see. I think it's going to be fine.
Julia*n Meding
Okay.
Charles Adrian
And if you say anything ridiculous that doesn't make any sense in English, I will just edit it out and have a computer robot say your text for you.
Julia*n Meding
Ah, okay, okay.
Charles Adrian
Does that sound reasonable?
Julia*n Meding
Yeah, it... I think it does something to me that I can't say no because my brain [indistinct] but it sounds good.
Charles Adrian
[laughs] You can explain later. We're going to start off with the first track from the amazing list that you gave me, which did a little bit blow my mind because they're the kind of things I would never listen to myself. This is Mykki Blanco and Brenmar and it's Wavvy. Warning for listeners, there's explicit language in this from the beginning.
Music
[Wavvy (prod. by Brenmar) by Mykki Blanco]
Charles Adrian
So that was Mykki Blanco and Brenmar with Wavvy.
sound
[electronic interference]
Charles Adrian
So, Julia*n, I forgot to tell you but the first thing I'm going to ask you is to describe yourself.
Julia*n Meding
Ah. Yeah.
Charles Adrian
Can you [snaps fingers] do that?
Julia*n Meding
Okay. I'm Julia*n Meding. I'm trying to make theatre performance or be in theatre performance... ces...
sound
[electronic interference]
Julia*n Meding
... [laughing] performances, critical art education and pop music. And right now I have to finish my studies and I'm... I sunk into my diploma and I'm like... it's a bit like living... yeah, I don't know, living in a hole or something. I'm...
Charles Adrian
Do you get to look out sometimes.
Julia*n Meding
I try.
Charles Adrian
[laughs] What's the subject of your diploma?
Julia*n Meding
It's performances that are, like, or that work with critical art education. So they're referring to another artwork. It's performance about another artwork. And it works with the mechanisms or the strategies of the – sometimes – of the artwork. It's relating to [indistinct] with something else. It's connected to institutional criticism.
Charles Adrian
Wow! No, it sounds fascinating.
Julia*n Meding
Yeah. It's a bit like...
Charles Adrian
So it's very referential.
Julia*n Meding
The performances?
Charles Adrian
Yes.
Julia*n Meding
Yeah. Yeah, they are. Yeah. I like working and I like writing this. It's a weird situation somehow. But on the other hand I'm happy with the subject.
Charles Adrian
It also – and you're not the first person I've met who's doing this... To do an academic thesis about something which is all about communication is also strange because you're just on your own writing and really what attracted you to it, I assume, is about... is to do with talking to other people somehow.
Julia*n Meding
Yeah. Yeah. So it's a bit like – I don't know if that makes sense – like a secondary talking to other people or something.
Charles Adrian
[laughs] Yes. Yeah. The conversation will happen later as well when they read what you've written. Like a delayed conversation. But tell me – now we're having our conversation right now – tell me what's the book that you brought that you like.
Julia*n Meding
That I like? Yeah. You said I can bring something that's not in English?
Charles Adrian
Yeah. That's totally fine. Anyone who has a kind of phobia of foreign languages can just hum to themselves for the next five minutes.
Julia*n Meding
Okay. It's called Warum Ist Landschaft Schön? by Lucius Burkhardt. And it's... I think it's a collection of texts about strollo... stroll... strollogy... strollology?
Charles Adrian
I have never heard of strollology. Is that to do with strolling.
Julia*n Meding
Yeah. I have to... It's somewhere written also, the word. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a science about strolling here.
Charles Adrian
Uh huh. Interesting
Julia*n Meding
In German it's Spatziergangswissenschaft.
Charles Adrian
Okay. I've never come across it but I like it. I like the idea of... Oh no, wait... Have I? Maybe I did. There was... A few years ago I was looking at the idea of the flanneur, which is the French, kind of, nineteenth century idea of somebody wandering around and maybe it's connected. Okay, anyway. Cool, so are they essays or stories?
Julia*n Meding
It's essays.
Charles Adrian
Ah. Interesting. Do you want to just read us a page?
Julia*n Meding
Yes, I want.
Charles Adrian
[laughs]
Julia*n Meding
Maybe the first page?
Charles Adrian
Yeah, that would be good.
Julia*n Meding
Okay. Strollology als Nebenfach. So it's strollology.
[Reads in German]
Charles Adrian
Wow, okay. I feel like I didn't understand all of that. [laughs] But it sounds interesting. So they're trying to reconstruct James Cook's wandering around Tahiti.
Julia*n Meding
It seems like, yeah. I don't know. I don't... I think I didn't read the chapter about this.
Charles Adrian
[laughs]
Julia*n Meding
It also confuses me a bit what this Tahiti thing is about.
Charles Adrian
But what... why... what... what was it about the book?
Julia*n Meding
I thought of this because, like, I like the idea... What I remember from it – I read it, also, some time ago – but one thing they're saying is that the perception of landscape has something to do with what you expect from it. So if you...
sound
[electronic interference]
Julia*n Meding
... if for you, like, a landscape of the forest is... should be, like, with some sort of trees and birds and a view from a hill or something and you...
sound
[electronic interference]
Julia*n Meding
... you're strolling around in this landscape and later get asked about what you saw, you will probably mention the things that you expected anyway.
Charles Adrian
Right. Oh, I like that. Yeah, yeah. Nice.
sound
[electronic interference]
Charles Adrian
Cool. Thank you. I'm going to play the second track that I picked from your selection, which is a track that I knew already but I never knew what it was. And I don't know whether I've heard the original or whether it's on Sampled and I've heard the sample but it's great and I was very grateful to you for...
sound
[electronic interference]
Charles Adrian
... putting it on your list so that I know now what it is. It's Vitamin C...
Julia*n Meding
Aha!
Charles Adrian
... by Can.
Julia*n Meding
Ah, okay. Cool.
Music
[Vitamin C by Can]
Charles Adrian
So that was Vitamin C by Can. That was fucking cool.
Julia*n Meding
Uh huh. Cool.
Charles Adrian
That was a good moment.
Julia*n Meding
Do you still want to tell where you recognised it?
Charles Adrian
I think it's from this CD Sampled which I have. But I'm not sure. It feels like a longer ago memory than that. It's just one of those things that I heard and I thought, “Ah! This... Yeah, I know this!”
Julia*n Meding
Ah. Okay.
Charles Adrian
Now, I'm going to give you the book that I'm going to give to you. So this is... I don't know how you're going to like this. I've just been rereading it to, kind of, check whether I still like it. I don't like it as much as I did [laughing] when I first read it. So I warn you of that. But it's... it's... What I like about it – it's Politics by Adam Thirlwell – is that he's... I think he's trying to show that... It's about the... The politics of the title is... it's how do you construct a threesome? How do you bring a third person into your relationship? That's essentially what the book is about. And not in any kind of glamorous, glorious way. But the whole way through the sex that they have, and the way that the relationship goes, is just kind of... it's... it's... it's really... it's really {not} glamorous. It doesn't always work very well, it's really clear that people want different things, they're uncomfortable sometimes, and... and that's okay. And I like that about the book. I like that there's very little dressing up of what is happening. And it's... So it's the kind of... Yeah, it's designed, I think, to make you feel more comfortable about your own lives. [laughing] That's how I feel about it. I'm going to read you the prologue.
I
The prologue
I
AS MOSHE TRIED, gently, to tighten the pink fluffy handcuffs surrounding his girlfriend's wrists, he noticed a tiny frown.
I think you are going to like Moshe. His girlfriend's name was Nana. I think you will like her too.
‘Pussy!’ he said. ‘What's wrong?’
He was crouching by her neck. She was lying on her stomach. Her arms were stretched, like a diver, above her head.
This is what was wrong. Nana's hands were too slender for the handcuffs. That was why she was frowning. There was a logistical problem. And Nana was a girl who cared about logistics. She took her sex seriously. But it was difficult to take sex seriously when, if she wriggled, her hands nearly slipped out. It was not, she explained, ideal. Wriggling was the charm of it.
As Nana glanced up, she saw Moshe's dejected face.
sound
[electronic interference]
Charles Adrian
‘Kitten!’ she said, ‘What's wrong?’
There you go.
Julia*n Meding
Thank you.
Charles Adrian
I think that's a fairly accurate representation of the tone of the book.
Julian and Charles Adrian
[laughter]
Julia*n Meding
Okay. It sounds cute.
Charles Adrian
It is cute.
Julia*n Meding
Oh my god and there's such a cute picture in front of it.
Charles Adrian
Yes, with them all with their paper bags on their heads.
Julia*n Meding
Yeah, with ears.
Charles Adrian
[laughs] I'd forgotten the ears.
Julia*n Meding
Yeah, they've got bags with ears on them.
Charles Adrian
Oh, yes, it's true. That is sweet.
Julia*n Meding
Thank you so much.
Charles Adrian
Oh, my pleasure. I hope you like it. The... I should warn you that the dialogue is often written out quite phonetically.
sound
[electronic interference]
Charles Adrian
He has a kind of tick about the way that we speak English, especially... It's kind of a... it's an attempt to transcribe the way that people in London speak English. So you may not... [laughing] it may not be very understandable for somebody who doesn't speak English as a first language. But see how it goes. They're very short chapter so you can always race through it.
Julia*n Meding
Okay.
Charles Adrian
Okay. And now the book that you're going to give to me.
Julia*n Meding
Ah, okay. It is Against Interpretation by Susan Sontag
Charles Adrian
[gasps] Wow! Do you know, I've never writ... read anything by Susan S... She's one of these writers who I feel like I should have written something... I should have read something by. I also feel like I should have, obviously, written what she's writing but I'm too late.
Julia*n Meding
You should what?
Charles Adrian
[laughing] She's one of these people who always comes up in conversations or when...
Julia*n Meding
[laughing] Ah! Okay.
Charles Adrian
... people are [laughing] writing about clever stuff and I think “Yeah, that should be me”. No, that's so... I'm really happy you're going to give me something by her.
Julia*n Meding
Okay. I read this when I was twenty-four. It gave me a lot of energy. It's, like, quite angry and polemic and I was like “Yeah! [indistinct]”.
Julian and Charles Adrian
[laughter]
Julia*n Meding
And after this for some time I became quite dogmatic about it.
Charles Adrian
[laughing] Wonderful.
Julia*n Meding
And... But I have to confess, like, I still... somehow I still think it's true, like, to, like... Maybe I'm still a bit unable to, like, talk about the content of something.
Charles Adrian
That's Susan Sontag whispering in your ear, is it?
Julia*n Meding
Yeah, something... I don't know. I was like... I got convinced or maybe I was, like, also had thoughts like this before that were a bit blurry and then I... But, yeah, when someone's, like... is talking about some kind of transfer... [indistinct] with interpretation or something, I think I'm still a bit... there is some sign popping up in my head: “I'm against it”.
Charles Adrian
[laughing] Right. Okay.
Julia*n Meding
Okay. So there is some quotations.
Charles Adrian
All right.
Julia*n Meding
Content is a glimpse of something, an encounter like a flash. It's very tiny—very tiny, content.
And the other quotation is:
It is only shallow people who do not judge by appearances. The mystery of the world is the visible, not the invisible.
OSCAR WILDE, in a letter
Against
interpretation
THE earliest experience of art must have been that it was incantatory, magical; art was an instrument of ritual. (Cf. the paintings in the caves at Lascaux, Altamira, Niaux, La Pasiega, etc.) The earliest theory of art, that of the Greek philosophers, proposed that art was mimesis, imitation of reality.
It is at this point that the peculiar question of the value of art arose. For the mimetic theory, by its very terms, challenges art to justify itself.
Plato, who proposed the theory, seems to have done so in order to rule that the value of art is dubious. Since he considered ordinary material things as themselves mimetic objects, imitations of transcendent forms or structures, even the best painting of a bed would be only an “imitation of an imitation.” For Plato, art is neither particularly useful (the painting of a bed is no good to sleep on), nor, in the strict sense, true. And Aristotle's arguments in defence [...]
Charles Adrian
Wow, that's intriguing already. It makes me think of the first book that you brought. Something to do with our not perceiving and not recording something that is real or that is really there.
Julia*n Meding
Okay.
Charles Adrian
That's what jumps out at me.
Julia*n Meding
Okay. Mmm hmm. So, in this case, what would that be that isn't there? Like, the art or...?
Charles Adrian
The art. The art object is not... from what... the quote – the Platonic quote, or the Plato quote – seems to be saying that... yeah, an artistic object is not an object.
Julia*n Meding
Mmm hmm. Mmm hmm.
Charles Adrian
And I like that. I think that's...
Julia*n Meding
So it's something that's... that's... It's like a ghost, then, or something.
Charles Adrian
Yeah. Yeah.
Julia*n Meding
Okay.
Charles Adrian
Yeah. But in the same way that the memory of the forest is... is a memory of an idea of what you're going to see. I like... yeah... that... that connection. Wonderful. Oh, thank you. I think I'm going to find this very stimulating. Wow. Cool. We should finish. I'm going to play the last track for today, which is by you. Well, by Uzrukki Schmidt, I should say.
Julia*n Meding
Ah yeah. Uh huh.
sound
[electronic interference]
Charles Adrian
Now, I was thinking earlier, so Mykki Blanco uses the feminine pronoun. What pronoun does Uzrukki... [rolling 'r'] Uzrukki? [emphasising 'z'] Uzrukki Schmidt use?
Julia*n Meding
For Uzrukki Schmidt, it becomes more and more undecided, I think.
Charles Adrian
Okay. Depends how... on the feeling of the day.
sound
[electronic interference]
Julia*n Meding
Yeah, and I think it's in the process right now.
Charles Adrian
[laughs] Okay. Cool. So this is a cover of Ace of Spades. And there's more stuff, listeners. If you want to find more stuff by Uzrukki or Julia*n...
sound
[electronic interference]
Charles Adrian
... you can look for julianfood on SoundCloud. There's some good things. But this is the Ace of Spades by Uzrukki Schmidt. That's the hardest word [laughing] to say. Thank you so much, Julia*n. This has been lovely.
Julia*n Meding
Thank you too.
Music
[Ace of Spades by Uzrukki Schmidt]
Charles Adrian
So, just to finish for today: after this episode of the podcast went out live to the whole of the world and anyone in it who might want to listen to it, I got a call from Julia*n, who wanted to talk a little bit more about the first book that he read from – Warum Ist Landschaft Schön? by Lucius Burkhardt – and this is the conversation that we ended up having:
So yeah, start... Why not tell me... tell me why... What are you uncomfortable about?
Julia*n Meding
So when I read out this passage that I introduced from the book, Warum Ist Landschaft Schön?, Lucius Burkhardt is talking about Captain Cook discovering Tahiti. And when I read this I thought, like... I felt uncomfortable by talking about discovering Tahiti because it has been colonised and to speak about discovering actually means colonisation. And so I thought that I should look it up a bit on the internet because this passage and Burkhardt doesn't reflect this colonial aspect at all. And I felt, like, uncomfortable, like, reproducing that. What I found out, looking it up on Wikipedia quickly today, is that this James Cook and natural scientist Georg Forster going to Tahiti in 1773 ended up in a report by Georg Forster that influenced Rousseau and his image of the noble savage.
Charles Adrian
Oh really. Uh huh.
Julia*n Meding
What I knew so far about this is what is, like, a core Eurocentric and Exotist concept. And I didn't expect to be... this Eurocentric point of view to be in this book. What I've learned from it so far is that this point of view is at far more places than I expected so far and that, yeah, there is way more people in different spaces that didn't reflect on [this]. So yes, it talks about colonisation but without reflecting [on it] and without naming it and that... yeah, that makes me... yeah, it makes me very uncomfortable, like, reproducing this.
Jingle
Thank you for listening to Page One. For more information about the podcast, please go to pageonepodcast.com.
[Initial transcription by https://otter.ai]