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(This episode is marked as explicit because of strong language in French.)
Episode image is a detail from the cover of The Sea, The Sea by Iris Murdoch, published in 2009 by Vintage.
Gloriously named actress, performance artist and poet warrior Isabelle Schoelcher joins Charles Adrian for the 51st Second Hand Book Factory. They talk about the yellow sun gang, about sex and about the sea. They get off topic for a while in order to talk about the kittens but, knowing Isabelle, this seems appropriate.
Here is a youtube clip of Jacques Brel performing Vesoul.
Another book by Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie, We Should All Be Feminists, is discussed in Page One 125.
Another book by Dennis Cooper, The Dream Police, is discussed in Page One 111, Page One 185 and Page One 186.
The Sea, The Sea by Iris Murdoch is also discussed in Page One 174. Another book by Iris Murdoch, Something Special, is discussed in Page One 77.
This episode has been edited to remove music that is no longer covered by licence for this podcast.
This episode features a jingle written for the podcast by the band Friends Of Friends.
A transcript of this episode is below.
Episode released: 11th March, 2014.
Book listing:
Half Of A Yellow Sun by Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie
Guide by Dennis Cooper (trans. Christophe Claro)
The Sea, The Sea by Iris Murdoch
Links:
Episode transcript:
Charles Adrian
Oh, do you want to put that on a mat?
Isabelle Schoelcher
That would be very useful.
Charles Adrian
Hello and welcome to the 72nd Page One. This is the 51st Second Hand Book Factory, I'm Charles Adrian, and my guest today is Isabelle Schoelcher.
Isabelle Schoelcher
Very good. [laughing] Well done!
Charles Adrian
Thank you.
Jingle
You're listening to Page One, the book podcast.
Charles Adrian
Hello Isabelle!
Isabelle Schoelcher
Hi there. [laughs]
Charles Adrian
You have a name... I think it's a name that makes everybody sound like they're wearing dentures.
Isabelle Schoelcher
[laughs]
Charles Adrian
Where does it come from?
Isabelle Schoelcher
It's actually Swiss German originally. I know this because about a decade ago I think, the... my grandparents – or someone in the family – mapped the family tree back. So it's actually quite old and I think it's a seventeenth century fisherman's name...
Charles Adrian
How lovely!
Isabelle Schoelcher
[laughing] ... and he somehow made his way from Swiss... Swiss... Switzerland – that country where they speak Swiss German... – Switzerland to Alsace, which is where my father's family are from originally. So, yeah.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Ah, okay. Wonderful.
Isabelle Schoelcher
It has a bit of a pedigree as well. The big famous person in my family is Victor Schoelcher, who was key in the abolishment of the slave trade.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Wow! Good man. Great man.
Isabelle Schoelcher
[speaking over] So there's, like, whole towns and shit named after us. Yeah yeah yeah.
Charles Adrian
Oh, wow. Okay, that's... That I didn't know. That's exciting. How would you describe yourself?
Isabelle Schoelcher
Yeah, no. I am an actress and a performance artist – because those are two separate things, I guess – professionally. And non-professionally I am a strange and friendly human who I think... I like the phrase “poet warrior” because I think it...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Wow. “Poet warrior”.
Isabelle Schoelcher
[laughing] I think... I don't write poetry. I've never tri... I've never... I've not done that since I was sixteen but I think that... that it, sort of, sums up a way of seeing the world which is slightly odd and poetic. And I think the warrior part is me questing for that in other people.
Charles Adrian
Oh, how interesting. Okay, that's nice. I'm going to have to think about this as I'm cycling home again. I shall roll the words “poet warrior” around my head. It might help me to cycle a little more nicely.
Isabelle and Charles Adrian
[laughter]
Charles Adrian
Tell me about the book that you've brought that you like.
Isabelle Schoelcher
I'm going to pick it up because that will help me.
Charles Adrian
Yeah.
sound
[muffled thumps]
Isabelle Schoelcher
I've hidden it from view. So it's Half of a Yellow Sun by Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie and it resonates with me particularly because I grew up partly in Nigeria – and in Port Harcourt, which is where quite a lot of this book is set. I read this a few years ago and actually I was rereading parts of it last night and had to really, kind of, be quite [laughing] strong with myself and not just dive in and read the whole thing because it's... The... I remember the thing that really resonated was how... Well, she tells a story from three different, sort of, points of view – so there are three narrative voices in it – and they are incredibly different, sort of, socially and also ethnically. And she writes those voices so clearly and so well. Those characters are so alive. It's just really fantastic. And I obviously am coming to this as someone who really has a place – like, has a setting – for this book in my mind. I... But I think... I think the thing I really got from it was that you don't need to have grown up in Nigeria or have any knowledge of Nigeria at all to... for it to resonate with you. I mean, that's... you know, that's my feeling having spoken to a lot of people. Because it's... If someone's read this book they look at you like they know. You know, like...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Like you're part of some kind of gang now.
Isabelle Schoelcher
Absolutely. And I... I've often said if there was one book that I could make everyone in the world read, it would be this book.
Charles Adrian
Oh wow!
Isabelle Schoelcher
Because it deals with Biafra and that was something that before... I grew up in Nigeria and before I read it I had no idea even existed.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Right. Okay.
Isabelle Schoelcher
It's incredibly [makes strangled sound].
Charles Adrian
It sounds potentially painful.
Isabelle Schoelcher
Yes.
Charles Adrian
Yeah.
Isabelle Schoelcher
Very. But also so clever and so simple.
Charles Adrian
Oh, lovely. Read me the first... or read us the first page.
Isabelle Schoelcher
I certainly shall. So, annoying actually. It's funny because this first... like, the idea of reading a first page... I sort of want to read the first page of each of the narrative voices but that's not allowed.
Master was a little crazy; he had spent too many years reading books overseas, talked to himself in his office, did not always return greetings, and had too much hair. Ugwu's auntie said this in a low voice as they walked on the path. ‘But he is a good man,’ she added. ‘And as long as you work well, you will eat well. You will even eat meat every day.’ She stopped to spit; the saliva left her mouth with a sucking sound and landed on the grass.
Ugwu did not believe that anybody, not even this master he was going to live with, ate meat every day. He did not disagree with his auntie, though, because he was too choked with expectation, too busy imagining his new life away from the village. They had been walking for a while now, since they got off the lorry at the motor park, and the afternoon sun burned the back of his neck. But he did not mind. He was prepared to walk hours more in even hotter sun. He had never seen anything like the streets that appeared after they went past the university gates, streets so smooth and tarred that he itched to lay his cheek down on them. He would never be able to describe to his sister Anulika how the bungalows here were painted the colour of the sky and sat side by side like polite, well-dressed men, how the hedges separating them were trimmed so flat on top that they looked like tables wrapped with leaves.
His auntie walked faster, her slippers making slap-slap sounds that echoed in the silent street. Ugwu wondered if she, too, could feel the coal tar getting hotter underneath, through her thin soles. They went past a sign, ODIM STREET, and Ugwu mouthed street, as he did whenever he saw an English word that was not too long. He smelt something sweet, heady, as they walked into a compound, and was sure it came from the white flowers clustered on the bushes at the [...]
Charles Adrian
Ooo! Ha ha! Thank you very much.
Isabelle Schoelcher
You're welcome.
Charles Adrian
Oh, that's lovely. Now, I'm going to play the first track that you've chosen. You sent me a nice long list of tracks which I went through yesterday and this is by somebody who... A lot of people send me music ideas by people who I don't really listen to and this is one of them. So Goldfrapp is [someone] that I've been aware of ages...
Isabelle Schoelcher
Good.
Charles Adrian
... and I haven't really listened to her... them...
Isabelle Schoelcher
Yes, “them”. But it's her and it's...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] It is her, isn't it?
Isabelle Schoelcher
... and I always... Well, I always say “her” but because it's her name and it's... And she often... I mean, in performance it's her. Like, he doesn't come along.
Charles Adrian
Oh does he not?
Isabelle Schoelcher
No, not at all. But... But it's very much them.
Charles Adrian
[laughs] Okay.
Isabelle Schoelcher
[speaking over] It's... yeah, it's really interesting. [laughs]
Charles Adrian
And this is gorgeous. This is Lovely Head...
Isabelle Schoelcher
Oh. I'm so glad you've chosen this.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Lovely Head by Goldfrapp.
Music
[Lovely Head by Goldfrapp]
Charles Adrian
She has amazing yellow eyes.
Isabelle Schoelcher
Yeah. Sometimes quite beautiful and sometimes like an actual Gremlin, yeah. Yeah. Or a snake. Slightly terrifying. Right.
Charles Adrian
So that was Lovely Head by Goldfrapp. And I now have your kitten, Iris...
Isabelle Schoelcher
Yes.
Charles Adrian
... sitting in my lap while I... while I talk to you about the book that I'm going to give to you...
Isabelle Schoelcher
[gasps] Fantastic.
Charles Adrian
... which... I don't know what you're going to make of this book.
Isabelle Schoelcher
[laughs] I'm scared!
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Essentially I wanted to give you... Having had this... We had this email exchange the other day where you said “What if you've already read the book?” And I thought “Yeah, now suddenly I feel a bit competitive”. And I wanted to give you something that I... I'm almost sure that you won't have read this.
Isabelle Schoelcher
Okay.
Charles Adrian
I might be wrong...
Isabelle Schoelcher
[speaking over] Okay. It's exciting.
Charles Adrian
... but it's Guide by Dennis Cooper.
Isabelle Schoelcher
Never even heard of it.
Charles Adrian
No. Well, it doesn't surprise me a lot. I can't remember who recommended this to me. Somebody said “You absolutely have to read Guide by Dennis Cooper” and I bought it on Amazon and I didn't check exactly what I was buying so I bought the French translation of...
Isabelle Schoelcher
[laughs]
Charles Adrian
[laughing] Guide.
Isabelle Schoelcher
That's ridiculous.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] And it makes me happy that I can give this to you and you'll be able to read it.
Isabelle Schoelcher
[speaking over] Yes! And probably the only person you can give it to.
Charles Adrian
Exactly. And the only person... well, that it makes any sense to give it to. It's a bizarre... I quite enjoyed it. It's basically... No, I'm going to take Iris off the table.
Isabelle Schoelcher
[laughing] Yes.
Charles Adrian
Do you want to hold her?
Isabelle Schoelcher
Okay.
Isabelle and Charles Adrian
[laughter]
Isabelle Schoelcher
Hello. Hello tiny stompy one.
Charles Adrian
Otherwise we'll have giant footsteps recorded like trembling...
Isabelle Schoelcher
I mean I should flag up, though, that her footsteps...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] ... vibrations.
Isabelle Schoelcher
... are so silent that quite often you'll be lying on your tummy or your back or whatever and suddenly she'll be in your face. You'll just feel the lightest footstep on your back.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] She's like... Okay.
Isabelle Schoelcher
She creeps up. She's a stealth kitten.
Charles Adrian
She's one of those little dinosaurs from...
Isabelle Schoelcher
A tiny dinosaur. From where...?
Charles Adrian
From Jurassic Park. [laughs]
Isabelle Schoelcher
That's really funny because Vera was talking about dinosaur sounds yesterday in relation to the cats because they don't... they do do, sort of, little meows, like, sort of, like [makes little meow sounds]. That, like, tiny kitten meow but not very well and actually more than that they do strange bird sounds. If you catch her unexpected, unawares, she goes [makes chirupping sound]. Like, these little, kind of... And he makes a little bird sounds...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Little chirrups.
Isabelle Schoelcher
Yes, little chirrups. Exactly. And he makes little chirrups to himself – little soothing chirrups to himself - but yesterday made an actual dinosaur sound. Vera was like “What was that dinosaur sound?”
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Amazing.
Isabelle Schoelcher
Yeah.
Charles Adrian
Oh, wow.
Isabelle Schoelcher
Can't recreate it.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Maybe they are dinosaurs.
Isabelle Schoelcher
Yeah. They are.
Charles Adrian
Anyway. This... So this is... It's essentially... It's a part of a cycle of five books that Dennis Cooper wrote. He's a performance artist and writer and blogger. I think his blog is supposed to be his main thing. I don't know a lot about him. But this is the fourth, I think, of the five and it's basically about sex and obsession and drugs and violence.
Isabelle Schoelcher
God, I think I hate it! [laughs]
Charles Adrian
Yeah, you might end up absolutely loathing the book.
Isabelle Schoelcher
[speaking over] I'm also really intrigued to see whether the French translation is any good.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Yeah. I don't know. It's translated by Christophe Claro.
Isabelle Schoelcher
Oh! Christophe, yes. Your friend and mine.
Charles Adrian
[laughs] Okay.
Guided by Voices
Luke est chez Scott. Mason est chez lui et se branle devant une photo du bassiste de Smear, Alex. Le jean d'Alex est si moulant qu'on voit carrément son cul. Un cul quelquonque, comme celui d'un gosse. Robert, Tracy, et Chris se défoncent à l'héro à l'autre bout de la ville. Ils sont vraiment graves. Pam dirige un film porno. Goof en est la vedette. Il a douze ans et demi. Je suis chez moi. J'écoute des disques et j'écris un roman sur les personnes susmentionées, en particulier Luke. Voilà.
“Robert. Tu filtres les appels?” Luke tendit l'oreille. “Je pense pas.” Il raccrocha.
“Ils sont toujours pas chez eux?” demanda la voix de frôlant[?] de Scott. Ella avait tendence à trembler, grincer, un sifflement rauque à peine audible.
I don't know how to pronounce “rauque”... Rauque [/raʊk/]... Rauque [/rəʊk/]...
Isabelle Schoelcher
Rauque [/rɑk/].
Charles Adrian
Rauque [/rəʊk/].
Isabelle Schoelcher
Yeah, you've done a very good job.
Charles Adrian
[laughs] So [indistinct] that gives you a fair idea...
Isabelle Schoelcher
[speaking over] That's going to be really... That's going to be, like...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] ... how that's going to go.
Isabelle Schoelcher
... really fun, [laughing] how that's going to go.
Charles Adrian
[laughs]
Isabelle Schoelcher
That's going to be really fun. [laughs]
Charles Adrian
So. I'm going play you now Vesoul by Jacques Brel, which is superb. I love this.
Isabelle Schoelcher
[speaking over] Oh I'm so glad. It's so good.
Isabelle Schoelcher
It's so good.
Charles Adrian
And I feel sorry for the poor accordionist but he's a champion.
Isabelle Schoelcher
[speaking over] He's... Yes. And I don't think he's as tyrannical in the recorded version but there's a great live version on YouTube, which you definitely should look up. And he just... he's just, like, “Chauffe! Chauffe la scène! Chauffe!” And he's like... the poor accordianist can't even deal with it. Yeah.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] I might have... I might have... I think I might have seen that, yes.
Isabelle Schoelcher
“Allez, chauffe! Chauffe!” Yes.
Charles Adrian
[laughs]
Music
[Vesoul by Jacques Brel]
Charles Adrian
So that was Vesoul by Jacques Brel. Now, what is your... what is your book for me, Isabelle?
Isabelle Schoelcher
So it's funny that Iris was came and joined us because I have a book by Iris Murdoch.
Charles Adrian
Oh...
Isabelle Schoelcher
For whom she was named, of course.
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Yes, I assumed that must be the case.
Isabelle Schoelcher
Yes. And I think you may well have read this but I don't care. It's The Sea, The Sea. And something about the... I... I read this book in Australia when my parents lived in Perth, Western Australia, where there's nothing but miles and miles of ocean – not sea, ocean – but for all purposes the sea. And it... but it's the Pacific O... No! It's the Indian Ocean. The Indian Ocean. And there's something very particular... like incredibly... incredibly beautiful and vast and actually quite violent about the Indian Ocean. And it's a completely different ocean to the sea of this book, which is grey and very northern... yes, and impenetrable. But reading it by that ocean, it just felt really right. And I love the narrator in this book. And something about the narrative voice reminded me, when I was thinking what book should I give you, of Samantha Mann actually. And...
Charles Adrian
[laughs] I'm not sure if that's flattering or not. Yeah? [laughs]
Isabelle Schoelcher
Well, for me I think it's quite specific. I think it's a, sort of, quite a sturdy Britishness. A... Sort of, an element... a, kind of... a degree of self-delusion. You know? Just something really, kind of, beautiful and naive, I think actually, but definitely... definitely very British. So it felt right. And I'm going to tell you now that this is actually really heartbreaking for me to give you this version because this is the actual...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] It's a lovely edition.
Isabelle Schoelcher
It's beautiful. It's so tiny. So tiny. And it's the one that I read on the Indian Ocean in Perth, Western Australia – [putting on Australian accent] at Cottesloe Beach, which is my beach. [normal voice] But I've got another very beautiful vintage edition as well, which has a different thing on the cover.
Charles Adrian
I'm happy to hear that.
Isabelle Schoelcher
Yes.
Charles Adrian
Read me the first page of it.
Isabelle Schoelcher
Prehistory
The sea which lies before me as I write glows rather than sparkles in the bland May sunshine. With the tide turning, it leans quietly against the land, almost unflecked by ripples or by foam. Near to the horizon it is a luxurious purple, spotted with regular lines of emerald green. At the horizon it is indigo. Near to the shore, where my view is framed by rising heaps of humpy yellow rock, there is a band of lighter green, icy and pure, less radiant, opaque however, not transparent. We are in the north, and the bright sunshine cannot penetrate the sea. Where the gentle water taps the rocks there is still a surface skin of colour. The cloudless sky is very pale at the indigo horizon which it lightly pencils in with silver. Its blue gains towards the zenith and vibrates there. But the sky looks cold, even the sun looks cold.
I had written the above, destined to be the opening paragraph of my memoirs, when something happened which was so extraordinary and so horrible that I cannot bring myself to describe it even now after an interval of time and although a possible, though not totally reassuring, explanation has occurred to me. Perhaps I shall feel calmer and more clear-headed after yet another interval.
I spoke of a memoir. Is that what this chronicle will prove to be?
Charles Adrian
[laughs] That's a great first page. I'd forgotten.
Isabelle Schoelcher
[speaking over] Isn't it?
Charles Adrian
This was an A-level set text for me so I wrote...
Isabelle Schoelcher
[speaking over] No!
Charles Adrian
... I wrote one of my A-level essays on The Sea, The Sea...
Isabelle Schoelcher
Gosh.
Charles Adrian
... giving me a B overall for that [laughing] subject.
Isabelle Schoelcher
[laughs] I feel... oh my god [indistinct] difficult... [indistinct] back...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] But I love this book. Yeah, I'm sorry. I loved it. And I love the... For me the character is forever... In my head he has the shape of my English teacher but...
Isabelle Schoelcher
Oh wow.
Charles Adrian
I'm... This is... This is perfect because I really want to reread this and my copy is filled with...
Isabelle Schoelcher
Notes.
Charles Adrian
... notes. And so it'll be really interesting to read a, kind of, virgin copy in a sense.
Isabelle Schoelcher
[speaking over] Yes. Yes. Good. And because I can't imagine just... god... ripping it into tiny little pieces like that. What a... Yes.
Charles Adrian
It was filled with beautiful thematic resonance and... [laughs]
Isabelle Schoelcher
But I mean, my copy of Crime And Punishment was like... I mean, it's unbearable. Like, you know, if I open it, it's just...
Charles Adrian
[speaking over] Yeah, I know. It's kind of embarrassing, isn't it?
Isabelle Schoelcher
You know… “Dark and light”.
Charles Adrian
[laughing] I know.
Isabelle Schoelcher
“Metaphors! Similes!”
Charles Adrian
[laughs] Exactly. “The monster” question mark. [laughs]
Isabelle Schoelcher
Oh my god! [laughs] Yeah. Impossible.
Charles Adrian
Yes. So I'm really...
Isabelle Schoelcher
[speaking over] Yes. Oh good.
Charles Adrian
Oh, I can't wait! Thank you so much. That's so exciting.
Isabelle Schoelcher
[speaking over] I'm really excited for you! I'm really excited for you.
Charles Adrian
Now. We're going to finish this podcast with some David Bowie. And you wrote to me, “No single track can express or sum up for me my love for David Bowie”. Something like that.
Isabelle Schoelcher
Yes.
Charles Adrian
But you suggested that I might try Heroes so that's what I've done.
Isabelle Schoelcher
Good. [laughs]
Charles Adrian
We're going to go out with Heroes by David Bowie.
Isabelle Schoelcher
[speaking over] Lovely. [laughs]
Charles Adrian
Thank you so much, Isabelle. [laughs]
Isabelle Schoelcher
Thank you very much.
Music
[Heroes by David Bowie]
[Initial transcription by https://otter.ai]